Are the big guys dead?

[jdripley]

Here's why I think the large point guys don't get fielded too often. When you buy into the game, you have your soldiers which are cool, and your special guys which are VERY cool! So you field them. Only you're new, so you haven't a clue how to play a large model in the game. You make some clumsy mistakes, usually of the "he's 300 points, how can he possibly die? Charge!" variety. The enemy recieves the charge, loses several models, gets spooked, and focuses every last deadly ounce of energy on that model. It dies quickly.

 

Then you're left feeling like it was a terrible model. In reality the model was alright, but the tactic stunk. Unfortunately we make the association with large and bad during our learning curve, at the same time we realize that a swarm works fairly well. We start winning more (because we're getting better at the game) while we're on the swarm kick, and then it sticks with us. We rarely play large models since we do well with swarm, so our tactics with them remain relatively poor compared to swarm.

 

So I guess my point is that it's more about our ability to effectively field large models, rather than the effectiveness of the model. But don't even get me into the discussion on "difficult models are fun because of the challenge."

 

A good example is how I use Thorvald (not a huge model.. but big by dwarf standards (warlords aside!). I used to charge him in, and he'd get mauled (haha...). Now I keep him behind my warriors, let him lend Reach support for a turn or two, then as the line starts to crumble I send the bear charging in, and generally he rips it up if I play him correctly like that.

[Brushmaster]

Trying to stop buying and start painting.

You n me both , except I'v e got twice as many fatcions to paint as you do .

 

good example is how I use Thorvald (not a huge model.. but big by dwarf standards (warlords aside!). I used to charge him in, and he'd get mauled (haha...). Now I keep him behind my warriors, let him lend Reach support for a turn or two, then as the line starts to crumble I send the bear charging in, and generally he rips it up if I play him correctly like that.

 

I'm not talking about the mid range figures like Thorvald but the huge guys . I know one of our players who tried a Bone Horror in 4 games in a row and it ended up a pincussion on every occasion . It was like it was a arrow magnet and no one could miss it . He swore of every using it again . Another player quit , yes quit , after I beat up his Grave Horror for the third time .

[Brushmaster]

And the Giant Chicken is worse than the Grave Horror .

[spiritual_exorcist]

Trying to stop buying and start painting.

You n me both , except I'v e got twice as many fatcions to paint as you do .

 

I might only be putzing around with 3 factions (soon to be 4), but I think you'd suprised how many models I have for those 3, and how many models I have for factions I'm not collecting (Quite a number of Overlords, Elves, Dwarves, and Nefsokar).

 

I think the Bone Horror is easily one of the best big models in the game (I don't own one because it looks like trash), and I love the Grave Horror; and have used it against you to fair success in at least one game I played against you (A game we ended up declaring a draw, but one I have no doubt whatsoever I would have won if played out). You were beating on pretty much newbies in both cases, one a player wih familiarity in GW style games and therefore the exact sort of tactics described above, and the other a kid with little or no tactical knowledge. You're digging up examples from some time ago as well, and they support jdripley's statement almost to the letter in their description:

 

Here's why I think the large point guys don't get fielded too often. When you buy into the game, you have your soldiers which are cool, and your special guys which are VERY cool! So you field them. Only you're new, so you haven't a clue how to play a large model in the game. You make some clumsy mistakes, usually of the "he's 300 points, how can he possibly die? Charge!" variety. The enemy recieves the charge, loses several models, gets spooked, and focuses every last deadly ounce of energy on that model. It dies quickly.

 

Then you're left feeling like it was a terrible model. In reality the model was alright, but the tactic stunk. Unfortunately we make the association with large and bad during our learning curve, at the same time we realize that a swarm works fairly well. We start winning more (because we're getting better at the game) while we're on the swarm kick, and then it sticks with us. We rarely play large models since we do well with swarm, so our tactics with them remain relatively poor compared to swarm.

 

You need to really consider who your opponents are, and the calibre of player we are playing, which is on a lower skill level than either you or I are for the most part. Not only do they get bashed when they take Big Creatures becasue they don't know how to properly support them, but they see you playing without them and beating on them so they become biased from that perspective as well. I would challenge you to try playing more games with them, I mean we are talking literally about a small number of models, The Grave Horror, the Hill Giant, the Wyvern, Xailor, Avatar of Sokar that reach the 200+ point mark. You've had your Hilly for some time now and I don't think you've even put him on the field. I assume this is becuase I've used mine to less than stellar success. THe problem with that is I got mine the same time I got my Gobbos and Lesser Orcs, so I was essentially trying to figure out an entirely new army and how to support a myriad of new models in these game. I will tell you I have played in 2 games where my Hill performed well, one he took down over 300 points, the other he took out nearly 200 and was a damage magnet that really took alot of the pressure off my army (although I admit in many games he has crashed and burned, alot having to do with me trying to sort him out). As I said, I wouldn't hesitate to pull him out in 1500-2000 points.

 

I really don't think your claims about Big Creatures is all that well founded, I agree they are tough to use in smaller games, but beyond that you appear to be fairly on your own when you make these claims. I know where you are coming from, but our experience is pretty limited because of the size of games we play, and the quality of opponents we generally play against.

 

You Tout your Dwarven Bears as something spectacular, yet in the games I've played against the Bears I've only seen such a model be effective once. But that doesn't mean I disbelieve what you are saying. I see they have alot of potential, even if they've never worked in games I've seen them used in (I've killed alot more points in Bears than Bears have killed of my models in the 4 games I've played against them). All I'm saying is that you need to have a bit more of an open mind, and a willingness to experiment, give yourself a handicap when you play at the club against some of the kids and take a big model once in a while, don't be so afraid to lose, and experiment with it.

 

I really look forward to throwing down with you in a big game, maybe we can make a pact to try out some of the larger creatures. I likely have Saturday the 16th off, and If I'm not mistaken that is the clubs 'All Weekend Meeting'. Want to pencil me in for a game then? If not I have Holidays beginning the week of the 24th and we could throw down for a day of gaming sometime that week.

 

Let's throw down and get some use out of those big guys, a couple of 2000 point games seems in order.

[Brushmaster]

Its was not me against these people who've had so much bad luck with the Bone Horror and I've never seen so many tens come out when these creatures have been used at the club .

You Tout your Dwarven Bears as something spectacular, yet in the games I've played against the Bears I've only seen such a model be effective once.

I did not , please quote me if I did .

Yeh the 16th sound good I'll let you know .

[jdripley]

I'm not talking about the mid range figures like Thorvald but the huge guys .

 

 

Yeah, I know. Since my faction has no large solitairs like that and I lack a Griffon still, the Bear is the closest thing I have experience with. I've seen a hill giant played, and it did fairly well, but that doesn't count for much really.

 

I do have experience playing high costed leaders though :D Logan and Thorgram. Actually I have more experience with Logan, but still that's only 1 tournament's worth so it's still not much. I think that high cost models are easier to play if they fit in a troop. There's alot less planning involved in keeping them supported, since they act as a unit with their support. So I'm not sure that it even applies to the discussion.

 

But here's something I'll add to the discussion: I've learned that when you use a high cost model, there's two things you need to do. Well 3, one is support and we know that already. So the other two are 1) control the flow of battle and 2) pick your targets well. If the enemy has you on the ropes you get forced into throwing your high cost model into bad situations far more often. This usually spells doom for them. And it's important to pick your targets well, because in a game dictated by math and point costs, you need to get your bang for your buck. Don't throw Logan at grunts... ever. Throw him at mages and powerhouse solitairs, etc. Since the big guys are difficult to keep alive once battle is joined, I think it's critical to make sure that their entrance to battle goes a long way towards breaking even. If you can use the big guy to take down a fully loaded mage then you've won already, point-wise. If you can take down another large model, etc, you're doing very well. It also has a demoralizing effect (which sometimes is better than a mathematical advantage) if you can slam the named models that they feel defines their army. Blast their mage, and they really feel like they're losing.

[Storminator]

I think it's crucial to field healers of some sort if you're going to bring an expensive model. Keeping that 300 pointer fresh for the cost of a Bandage or Cure is enormous. I like the Wyvern and the Hill Giant for this, since you can almost always see them (size 3). In the game above I used both Life Transfers on the Wyvern (the Bandage on Matisse failed because Balthon was on his last track...).

 

PS

[Ravenwolf]

I mostly play Necropolis and fortunately the (2) standard "big" Models can be used in both lists. I especially love the Bone Horror, but I think the sculpt sucks rocks . I use Dark Heaven #02705 Khulsanthus as my Bone Horror. I think the BH gives you the most bang for your buck. Nothing fancy just a straight powerhouse. #MA 2, MAV 6 (7 with a Totem), DV 14, MD 13 and 5 DT's all for 160 points. It's got Beast for a 7" ground charge, Horrid so it's hard to mob it & Tough/4 (5 in CL). Flyer will get it where you want to go even with Mov 6 and that plus Deflect will keep it alive when you need it to retreat (I'm mean DV 11 vs. Ranged on 3 damage!!) . Storm's got the right idea about keeping the big guys healed so I always pack some Life Transfers. I've had poor luck with the Grave Horror so even though I love the Model, I almost never field it.

 

I recently picked up Sir Vandrian and I'm dying to try him out in my Vampire list I just need to paint my vampire now

[Darthiir]

Played a 1000pt game tonight against a new player and with only knowing that he was Nefoskar I brought both Mossbeard and the Giant Eagle along with two more troops for a total of 20 models (only 2 Archers). He had Khufu, Fatima, a bunch of Devourers and the Scorpion.

 

Fatima used a call lighting too great effect, dropping three warriors and an archer. However, the big guys did their job taking out both the Scorpion and Khufu with no wounds on the GE and taking 2 wounds on MB with defensive strikes.

 

I love the big guys, especially MB with his Corvus crushing fist! And in higher builds (1500) I have brought two of them. One just not being evil, I mean Good, enough.

 

Elves are also magic happy and I have been known to drop 200-300 on Lysette in a 1000 pt game.

[spiritual_exorcist]

Its was not me against these people who've had so much bad luck with the Bone Horror and I've never seen so many tens come out when these creatures have been used at the club .

You Tout your Dwarven Bears as something spectacular, yet in the games I've played against the Bears I've only seen such a model be effective once.

I did not , please quote me if I did .

Yeh the 16th sound good I'll let you know .

 

You've told me how much you like the Bears and how effective they can be several times, I'm not going to scour through all your posts to look and see if you've said it in print. You think they are a quality model, and I don't disagree in the least. I'm only making the point that I've rarely seen them be effective, but that doesn't mean they arn't. And the same can be said of Big Monsters, just because we've not had great success using them, doesn't mean others havn't. That was merely the point that I was making, it wasn't intended to be offensive (I wasn't looking to get into a discussion about Thorvald, because truth is I agree about him being decent).

 

Sweet with regards to the 16th

[Hellsgate]

Well I have seen him uses them effectively a few time that I can recall. Any ways back to me… two out of three friendly games (not at the club) the krungbeast paid for his price and then some even in one of them taking out over double his point cost. Sadly everywhere else I haven’t had any luck. The most unlucky of all was being held up by a single elf, who decided to stand up not one not twice but about 4-5 time, all without a single bandage.

 

So my 2cents worth is don’t charge a single model under 20pt even if it’s the only thing with in range and there’s no counter charge waiting