LOS and Hills

[rcrosby]

Size 1 Orc behind Size 1 Wall = Cover. Type of cover determines RAV penalty.

Stone wall = Heavy Cover. Wooden fence = Light Cover.

Size 1 Orc behind Size 1 Orc(s) = Cover?

 

Rich

[Storminator]

Size 1 Orc behind Size 1 Wall = Cover. Type of cover determines RAV penalty.

Stone wall = Heavy Cover. Wooden fence = Light Cover.

Size 1 Orc behind Size 1 Orc(s) = Cover?

 

Rich

 

I'd say block.

 

PS

[Stubbdog]

if the bases are lined up, where the size 1 attacker cannot see any of it, then its blocked. If they are scewed where the attacker can see part of the base, then its covered.

[Gus Landt]

Size 1 Orc behind Size 1 Wall = Cover. Type of cover determines RAV penalty.

Stone wall = Heavy Cover. Wooden fence = Light Cover.

Size 1 Orc behind Size 1 Orc(s) = Cover?

 

Rich

It's not that simple anymore. It COMPLETELY depends on the level of the archer. If I'm shooting with a size 2 archer, and the hiding orc is within 2 inches of the blocking orc, then it would be light cover. If I'm shooting with a Size 3 archer, or a flying archer, then you don't get any cover.

If however I am attacking with a size 1 archer, then this one is clearly spelled out in the errata:

 

Obstruction (Terrain or Model) is an Equal Base Size Value

Any obstructing item in the ½ inch LOS corridor, Cover (Page 66) or Model (Page 53), that is EQUAL to the largest Base Size Value of either the attacker or the defender’s Base Size Value (whichever is the largest) will only Block LOS if it crosses the 1mm centerline.

[rcrosby]

Size 1 Orc behind Size 1 Wall = Cover. Type of cover determines RAV penalty.

Stone wall = Heavy Cover. Wooden fence = Light Cover.

Size 1 Orc behind Size 1 Orc(s) = Cover?

 

Rich

It's not that simple anymore. It COMPLETELY depends on the level of the archer. If I'm shooting with a size 2 archer, and the hiding orc is within 2 inches of the blocking orc, then it would be light cover. If I'm shooting with a Size 3 archer, or a flying archer, then you don't get any cover.

If however I am attacking with a size 1 archer, then this one is clearly spelled out in the errata:

I was not asking a question about the current rules. I was replying to Qwyk about his proposed simplified changes - is a size 1 wall different from a size 1 model?

 

Rich

[Qwyksilver]

I was not asking a question about the current rules. I was replying to Qwyk about his proposed simplified changes - is a size 1 wall different from a size 1 model?

 

Yeah, after I posted that, I forgot to add in the stuff about other models providing cover/blocking LOS. I had a long day at work and I was tired, and simply forgot about it.

 

As I wrote it out, yes a Level 1 Model would provide Cover for another Level 1 Model. All Models provide Heavy Cover.

 

The problem with leaving it at just that, is this then allows you to fire over ANY line of models to the models in the back. Since Cover does not stack, this means, even if the line is 8 people deep, you can still shoot them. Just as easily as you could shoot the guy in the second row. I don't have a huge problem with this, because well, you don't usually shoot an arrow in a straight line, for distance, you typically arc it. I also don't have too much of an issue with this, because you're starting to get into the Realm of needing a 10 to hit most anything, but some people might not like this. Especially people that field low DV Models. This also begins to erode Volley attacks, except for those, at least there would be no cover penalties since you are shooting over the Obstruction.

 

If you try to keep it too close to the current rules, you have to start coming up with more and more special rules and this brings more debate and confusion. For example, right now models block LOS. To keep this intact, you'd have to then say something along the lines of "When a Model obstructs Line of Sight, treat the Model as 1 Size Category Larger than it is." I'd rather keep the special circumstances to a minimum, since this is an attempt to keep it simple.

[spiritual_exorcist]

I don't think it's too terribly difficult to work out a simple solution, within much of the existing framework.

 

Keep Heavy and Light Cover to signify simply the quality of cover (-2 RAV or -1 RAV respectively). Skip all the confusing Heavy Cover of a certain size is treated as Light Cover of a larger size, etc.

 

Essentially:

Size of Model > Size of Cover = No Cover

Size of Model = Size of Cover = Cover bonus, amount based on Heavy vs Light vs None

Size of Model < Size of Cover = LOS blocked

 

Size of model is adjusted based on elevation. +/- 1 per level of elevation up or down.

 

Then it just comes down to determining at the start of the game what each terrain value is.

 

My favorite part about the previous cover rules was the degredation of cover (cover changing from heavy to light depending upong the size of the model and the size of the cover). I'm PO'd that it was dropped, and I don't find it confusing at all, but rather very intuitive.

 

I've had this problem since I got into the game, Why is a 1 inch wall considered the same size as a model that clearly stand taller than it. As I've said time and time again, Make it would be easiest to simply leave everything about the cover rules alone. Make standard models size 2, small size 1, Big size 3, etc. This alone fixes just about everything.

 

You and I want the same thing, I just want to retain the degredation of cover, and tkae into account visible discrpancies between the cover sizes and models sizes as presented on pages 66 and 67.

 

To make this happen:

Size of Model = 2 less than Size of Cover, Light Cover=None, Heavy Cover = Light (-1)

Size of Model = 1 less than Size of Cover, Light Cover (-1), Heavy Cover (-2)

Size of Model = or < Size of Cover = LOS Block if no 1mm LOS corridor exists (Otherwise cover modifier applies)

 

Size of model is adjusted based on elevation. +/- 1 per level of elevation up or down.

This way you don't need to make special provisions for models of the same size blocking LOS, they already do.

 

Models base size:

Vermin= size 0, Small size= 1, Standard size= 2, Large + Cavalry= Size 3, Giant size= 4, Super size =5.

(Big +1 to base size, Small -1 to base size)

 

Cover (As decided by players prior to play, but with more detailed guidelines given)

 

size 0

1/4-3/4 inch approx

Light = small scrubs, low hedges, size 0 (vermin)models

Heavy = small rubble and rough Terrain, low walls

 

size 1

1-1 1/3 inch approx

Light= medium hedges, size 1 (small) models

Heavy=medium walls, 1 inch hills (or elevation)

 

size 2

1 1/2-2 inches

Light=Tall Hedges, small Light woods, High wooden walls, size 2 (standard) models

Heavy=Heavy field Works, High Stone walls, small Heavy Woods, 2 inch hills (or elevation)

 

size 3

2-3 inches

Light=Light woods, small wooden buildings/structures, size 3 (Big, Cavalry, Large) models

Heavy = HEavy Woods, small stone buildings/structures, 3 inch hills (or elevation)

 

size 4

>3 inches

Light = Tall Light woods, Medium Wooden buildings/structures, size 4 (Giant) models

Heavy= Tall Heavy woods, Medium Stone buildings/structures, 4 inch+ hills (or elevation)

 

Size 5 = anything big enough to obscure everything

Castles walls or a Dragon for instance.

 

 

As it stands models have only been put into the Light Cover category as Size 1 "Models", and Size 2 "Tall models". This is very vague, is a Hill Giant Size 2 under these rules? Or are they size 3? Does the table on page 53 correspond to the Cover size chart on page 66? I would have said yes, but the chart on page 53 goes 0-4, and the cover sizes on page 66 only go 0-3. It all needs to be cleared up.

 

Anyway, once again, my thoughts.

 

I like the direction you are going, but as it removes the degredation of cover, and doesn't take into account other models of the same size without a special provision, I think changing the sizes of models would work a little better.

[rcrosby]

I've had this problem since I got into the game, Why is a 1 inch wall considered the same size as a model that clearly stand taller than it.

For the same reason that Lord Ironraven is considered "Big" even though KhongTo is a bigger model. Same with Goblins and Dwarves - they seem about the same size to me yet Goblins are "Small". Again, the models are advertised as "25mm", so standard size is supposed to be 1 inch tall even though the sculpters always take artistic license.

 

Rich

[airhead]

So, back to the original question. Here is my understanding of the new ruleset for cover/LOS.

 

Opponents both on same level:

There is now no hill, fence or hedge that a standard size model can stand completly behind and get cover from. He can poke around the edge and get cover (like a doorway, pillar, building corner, etc.)

 

That 3/4" - 1" wall is no longer Size 1, it is now less. So it does not provide cover nor does it impend movement going over it. Small & standard both hide and are coverd behind level 1 terrain. If the enemy is one level up, he can see the standard, but not the small unless small is not within 2" of the cover.

 

 

So much for my fortifications and fenceworks (borrowed some pics from Frosh) - like this one:

 

This would still provide cover due to the crenelations at the top:

[vejlin]

So basically stuff like arrow slits still give heavy cover?

[spiritual_exorcist]

Who knows, no-one has bothered to be clear enough except to say, "Whatever you and your opponents decide".

 

This may suite alot of you just fine, but I'd like a far better description of covar and sizes, and exactly what should be falling into which size.

 

My gaming group can always amend cover rules how we see fit. But it would be nice to have a worthwhile defining guideline. "Whatever you and your opponents decide" just seems lazy on the part of Reaper.

 

The rules set is in shambles these days with all of the erratta and online rulings that change, elaborate, redefine, ammend, and further explain varioous aspects of the game. As a long time player I can follow what is going on mostly, but try convincing new players that this is the game for them. Reaper needs to think long and hard about a fully amended and expanded Core Rule Book. I think Reaper is concentrating too hard to this online community being their primary target audience. We are already sold on this game, but every time a new ruling or change is made it makes it that much difficult to get new players involved.

 

How do the cover rules work you ask? I really have no idea right now. ANd this thread has been here quite some time without giving us further clarification to the already vague erratta. I'll wait if need be, I just hope someone out there is working up a response that gives us examples of just how LOS and cover work, along with answering the questions being posed here.

 

I'm not adamant things need to be changed, all I want is things to be more fully explained, and some examples given.

[Hellsgate]

Well after promessing my self i would stay out of this argument here i am.

 

To make this happen:

Size of Model = 2 less than Size of Cover, Light Cover=None, Heavy Cover = Light (-1)

Size of Model = 1 less than Size of Cover, Light Cover (-1), Heavy Cover (-2)

Size of Model = or < Size of Cover = LOS Block if no 1mm LOS corridor exists (Otherwise cover modifier applies)

 

Size of model is adjusted based on elevation. +/- 1 per level of elevation up or down.

.......

 

I personly find this idea logical, simple, and most importantly playable. While some same that it's a game and therefore a 1/2" wall is easily the equivlent of a 6' person and therefore no nead for any of this, most poeple play that the turrain is more or less to scale and find it hard to accept that the 1/2" wall gives total cover to the 1" tall model. But to me what SE said clears up this problem. Secondly i also agree with that a heavy cover for a size 1 model should be light for a size 2, not non-existant.