Playbalance & Mercenaries

[Soulcatcha]

Im a relative noob to warlord but it seems to me that many r opposed to allowing people to "plug" the weak spots in the factions too easily. this seems logical to me. i completely see the point about archers, if every1 can just default to strong merc archers then (amongst "gamey" types anyways) that is wat u will see ,thus watering down the flavour of factions and makin already strong factions nigh unbeatable. Another example, i play darkspawn& one of my regular opponents plays Necropolis, BOTH of us dont get clerics, i assume 4 a reason but with the proposed 25% rule (as long as there suitable merc clerics of course) im assumin we could easily fill those points out with clerics and therefore unbalance the central ideas of our forces and although a certain part of me(the "gamey"part) likes the idea i feel it just cheapens the game to do so. just my 2pennies worth

[Saint Vierzehn]

maybe modifier to points cost if models are included as part of the 25%

 

 

Maybe not. A Merc model is going to do the same thing whether you plunk it down next to skinny guys with pointy ears, short guys with beards, or other Mercs.

 

And the notion that Merc troops shouldn't be as point-efficient as anybody else's is just plain silly. It is its own faction, and it ought to be playbalanced as anybody else's, even if it's name does start with "M".

 

-StV.

[drjsallison]

maybe modifier to points cost if models are included as part of the 25%

 

 

Maybe not. A Merc model is going to do the same thing whether you plunk it down next to skinny guys with pointy ears, short guys with beards, or other Mercs.

 

And the notion that Merc troops shouldn't be as point-efficient as anybody else's is just plain silly. It is its own faction, and it ought to be playbalanced as anybody else's, even if it's name does start with "M".

 

-StV.

 

 

I agree that it is its owm faction and shouldn't be overpriced. I also agree that if other Factions use mercs, they should 'pay a premium'.

 

I follow the logic that an all merc force is doing 'in house work' to there own ends, thus being less costly. When they are with other factions, the hiring faction is paying a premium (profit) to the mercs when they fight for them.

[Soulcatcha]

maybe modifier to points cost if models are included as part of the 25%

 

 

Maybe not. A Merc model is going to do the same thing whether you plunk it down next to skinny guys with pointy ears, short guys with beards, or other Mercs.

 

And the notion that Merc troops shouldn't be as point-efficient as anybody else's is just plain silly. It is its own faction, and it ought to be playbalanced as anybody else's, even if it's name does start with "M".

 

-StV.

 

 

I agree that it is its owm faction and shouldn't be overpriced. I also agree that if other Factions use mercs, they should 'pay a premium'.

 

I follow the logic that an all merc force is doing 'in house work' to there own ends, thus being less costly. When they are with other factions, the hiring faction is paying a premium (profit) to the mercs when they fight for them.

 

 

maybe modifier to points cost if models are included as part of the 25%

 

 

Maybe not. A Merc model is going to do the same thing whether you plunk it down next to skinny guys with pointy ears, short guys with beards, or other Mercs.

 

And the notion that Merc troops shouldn't be as point-efficient as anybody else's is just plain silly. It is its own faction, and it ought to be playbalanced as anybody else's, even if it's name does start with "M".

 

-StV.

 

 

I agree that it is its owm faction and shouldn't be overpriced. I also agree that if other Factions use mercs, they should 'pay a premium'.

 

I follow the logic that an all merc force is doing 'in house work' to there own ends, thus being less costly. When they are with other factions, the hiring faction is paying a premium (profit) to the mercs when they fight for them.

oops my bad, ignore last post as hit reply(when hadnt put anything) by mistake Would just like to agree with the above. dont see why mercs cant have a strong list just feel that it shouldnt b too easy for other factions to take advantage to eliminate thier own weakspots. to me a points premium seems reasonable and the logic expressed by drjsallison for this seems reasonable too

 

oh god made complete mess of that! Oh well ignore all but the supportive bit at bottom of post please, jeez i need to trade my brain in

[spiritual_exorcist]

If you were to do this, would it be worthwhile, meaning if you made a modifier/penalty for taking Mercs in your force would anyone take Mercs in their force. I suppose it would need to be decided just what an appropriate modifer was.

 

I thought the losing faction abilities was a nice penalty myself.

 

Are we talking about allowing Factions to hire Merc strictly? Or to employ 25% any other forces? If this goes beyond Mercs are we talking about allowing such additions to be from a single additional faction, or many of them?

 

 

A penalty could be imposed that forces faction forces employing Mercs to give up some of their faction abilities but not all perhaps?

 

I dunno, I still don't like the idea. Seems gimmicky and an attempt to sell the Mercenaries, a bit of a cash grab. I know it likely isn't the case at all, but if I didn't know Reaper as a comapny I might think that was the casel, otherwise why shove this Mercenaries book right into the middle of the production scheduele as opposed to bringing it out at the end?

[vejlin]

I definitely feel mercs included in other armies is a good idea. I just want it to not upset the balance and flavour of the game.

 

The modifier I suggested is rough and not a very good solution. Maybe a negative SA would be a better solution? Making mercs somehow a little unreliable? Maybe a dis penalty on the mercs or something? Ideally I'd like some sort of random negative effect, so you never know.

 

Maybe there's a small chance the mercs will arrive late at the battle? Maybe they don't allways do as they're told.

 

I'm not talking anything major, just something that might happen once per battle.

[Qwyksilver]

Having mercenaries cost more to field in your personal army and not lose Faction abilities is a fair trade off.

 

It's easy to make fluff for too. There are private, standing armies, with no national affiliation (Hanged Men, Sinhan, etc) and then there are the guns for hire (Mercs in your army). The guns for hire charge more, not because they are better, but because they don't have the extra support of their standing army, and need to provide their own gear, care, etc.

[Unholy_Hamster]

I definitely feel mercs included in other armies is a good idea. I just want it to not upset the balance and flavour of the game.

 

The modifier I suggested is rough and not a very good solution. Maybe a negative SA would be a better solution? Making mercs somehow a little unreliable? Maybe a dis penalty on the mercs or something? Ideally I'd like some sort of random negative effect, so you never know.

 

Maybe there's a small chance the mercs will arrive late at the battle? Maybe they don't allways do as they're told.

 

I'm not talking anything major, just something that might happen once per battle.

 

 

I don’t know why everyone think mercenaries are all unreliable cowards, many generals have decided that professional soldiers might be a better option than some peasant dragged off his land during harvest. Throughout history there have been plenty of examples of mercenary corps that where very well respected and (probably more importantly) feared by the contemporaries. The Swiss mercenary companies in the renaissance and the Greek hired soldiers in Persia during Alexander the Greats invasion are just two examples of mercenary companies praised for their sense of duty.

 

They are however under contract which is something that could be used to add to the game instead of removing character of the armies. Instead of only adding to fill tactical gaps, every mercenary could be under a contract with a specific term(protect this character, defend that hill, let no-one pass this bridge etc.), it would be easier if all are under the same contract, there could however be made room for several contracts with various mercs in the same army, by making some official contract terms. They will fight fiercely to uphold the contract, but would be rigid if they enemy managed to work around the terms of the contract (like crossing by swimming the river instead of taking the bridge).

[Castlebuilder]

I really like the idea of allowing any faction to use a limited number of mercenaries. I agree with the discussion that hiring mercs should have some added expense or risk involved. Unholy Hamster make the point that there were quality mercenaries, but history is also full of examples of bad mercenaries. An increase in their cost isn't a bad concept, but I'm not sure what percentage would be appropriate. A 10% increase would be easy to calculate, but that's proabably a bit high. 5% might be better, but would require me to dig up old math skills. I think some of us need to playtest things a good bit to see how much using mercs skewers things.

 

When I read the post suggesting the possibility of a negative SA, I thought of this: The leader of a troop of mercenaries is what holds the band together. If the leader of a troop is eliminated, the remaining members of the troop receive a shaken token. After receiving the shaken token, each model must then make a discipline check, and if they fail the model retreats.

 

Castlebuilder

[vejlin]

I like that idea

[Outkast Samurai]

Now that's a good thought CB. There are both solid and unreliable mercs known so that's easy to take care of through the fluff and such. What we really need to look at is how the cost should effect the merc units bought. Now every faction has a weakness of some sort inherently built into them. It not only effects the playstyle of that faction but helps define them and keep them from being cookie cutters of each other. If the weak areas of your faction can be pieced together with a nice cheap solution via the mercenaries I think that it will not only unbalance what Reaper has fought so had to keep on an even playing field but it will lessen the identity of the factions as well.

 

"Well my marines are different than yours"

"How is that?"

"Mine are blue and yours are green"

 

[Saint Vierzehn]

The modifier I suggested is rough and not a very good solution. Maybe a negative SA would be a better solution? Making mercs somehow a little unreliable? Maybe a dis penalty on the mercs or something? Ideally I'd like some sort of random negative effect, so you never know.

 

 

If you really wanted to hand out penalties for taking mercs, it would make more sense to apply the negative penalty to the non-merc portion of the army. After all, contract work is everyday fare for mercs, but the regulars could easily suffer morale penalties due to the implicit statement that their leader thought the regular army was inadequate for the coming fight. And besides, if you want to apply sufficient penalty to discourage the use of mercs, it makes more sense to apply the penalty to the 75% regular army rather than to the 25% mercs.

 

End facetious mode. I'm quite tired of the assertion that mercs should be inferior to the troops of other factions. That idea, in all its variations, is unsportsmanlike.

 

The notion that a given model should cost more for one player but not another flies in the face of playbalance. The idea that the 25% merc rule should be tossed out entirely is at least internally consistent in its logic, though I don't agree with it.

 

-StV.

[vejlin]

Well honestly the suggestions I've made have been made solely to preserve playbalance, not to destroy it. IMO playbalance could suffer if 25% mercs can be brought at no penalty.

[smokingwreckage]

"The notion that a given model should cost more for one player but not another flies in the face of playbalance."

 

Perhaps, but it has seemed that that is how Reaper has done it in some instances.

 

"End facetious mode. I'm quite tired of the assertion that mercs should be inferior to the troops of other factions. That idea, in all its variations, is unsportsmanlike."

 

Actually the fear is that mercs may very well be quite superior in some instances, making the stock troops for that role in that faction a stupid choice, such that everyone everywhere must field 25% mercs if they want to be competitive, assuming that the mercs are a "No outstanding strengths, no outstanding weaknesses, solid troops for every role" force.

[spiritual_exorcist]

I would instantly be fielding Merc X-Bowmen in my Crusader Armies, and there is a good chance I would field them in my Reven armies to gain a second ranged attack unit that isn't extremely expensive (liek the Skeeters).

 

I fact I see this 25% rule as being exactly like smockingwreckage says, unless some premium penalty is applied the Mercs will be used to fill all of the faction weaknesses that currently give each army an identity and likewise give the whole game it's flavour.

 

25% is alot! That's 250 points in a 1000 point game, and I can do alot with 250 points (9 X-Bowmen are 198 points, 5 Lupine Ragers are 220, and I can get 13 Warriors for 247).

 

Would these Merc units have to have their own leaders? Could they be mixed into troops with faction leaders and faction units?

 

How is using Mercs in this way any different than using 25% Dwarves in your Elf army?

 

There needs to be some sort of premium set.

 

But as I said before, I utterly dislike the idea.

 

THe rules are already in place for Freelance armies, if you want Mercs in your army play Freelance.

 

What about losing part of a given factions abilities if you employ 25% Mercs?

 

 

Necropolis: Lose Vampiric Feeding + Chattel

Crypt Legion: Lose Necromantic Surge

Reven: Lose Mob Mentality

Tomukh: Lose Warcry

Noghra: Lose Mob Mentality

Crusaders: -2 Discipline checks when Mercying

Army of Justice: Lose Judgement

Dwarves: Lose March of the Pipes

Elves: Lose Feathered Sky

Reptus: Lose Aura of Jade THorns

Darkspawn: requires an additional +1 Pain tokens to ignore being killed

Overlords: Lose Do your Duty

Nefsokar: Lose Sokar is Near