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Lite Spells


rcrosby
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I got stuck covering phones earlier, and it was really boring, and since I was sitting where anyone could watch my screen, I decided logging onto the Forum wasn't the best idea. So I let my mind wander a bit. Very scary notion.

 

 

One of the things I think that would be most beneficial to the Lower CP Casters is to try and come up with more spells that are considered successfully cast vs 10, but have the effect of the spell be based off the actual CP. This way, the impact is actually a result of the Caster's true power.

 

Coming up with a bunch of cheap spells while great, because it adds variety, and some limited in game effect, still doesn't really address the core issue of the weak caster. Their spells are far less likely to be effective. Irregardless of the spell costing 10 points or 50, a CP 3 vs MD 12 is still rough odds.

 

Someone mentioned earlier that having more Mage spells receiving the Friendly Model Modifier would help. One point to consider is that by and large, the trend has been that Mage spells are generally Offensive, Attack Spells, Clerics are Defensive or Healing. That's also why the CP of most clerics are a bit lower than Mages. Think of the number of DV 7+ Mages in the game. There are quite a few. How many CP 7+ Clerics are there? Of the 12 models with CP >= 7, 4 are Clerics. They all have a CP of 7. There are only 3 casters currently in the game with a CP 8 or higher, all Mages. If you drop yourself down to a CP >= 6, you add in 13 more models, but again, only 4 more Clerics. So at CP >= 6, you've got 25 models, 8 being Clerics. If you start adding in too many Mage spells with the +2 Friendly Modifier, that is going to become a major Balance issue.

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I got stuck covering phones earlier, and it was really boring, and since I was sitting where anyone could watch my screen, I decided logging onto the Forum wasn't the best idea. So I let my mind wander a bit. Very scary notion.

 

 

One of the things I think that would be most beneficial to the Lower CP Casters is to try and come up with more spells that are considered successfully cast vs 10, but have the effect of the spell be based off the actual CP. This way, the impact is actually a result of the Caster's true power.

 

Coming up with a bunch of cheap spells while great, because it adds variety, and some limited in game effect, still doesn't really address the core issue of the weak caster. Their spells are far less likely to be effective. Irregardless of the spell costing 10 points or 50, a CP 3 vs MD 12 is still rough odds.

 

Someone mentioned earlier that having more Mage spells receiving the Friendly Model Modifier would help. One point to consider is that by and large, the trend has been that Mage spells are generally Offensive, Attack Spells, Clerics are Defensive or Healing. That's also why the CP of most clerics are a bit lower than Mages. Think of the number of DV 7+ Mages in the game. There are quite a few. How many CP 7+ Clerics are there? Of the 12 models with CP >= 7, 4 are Clerics. They all have a CP of 7. There are only 3 casters currently in the game with a CP 8 or higher, all Mages. If you drop yourself down to a CP >= 6, you add in 13 more models, but again, only 4 more Clerics. So at CP >= 6, you've got 25 models, 8 being Clerics. If you start adding in too many Mage spells with the +2 Friendly Modifier, that is going to become a major Balance issue.

 

 

Now, there you go getting all mathy and logicy in this discussion! No no no!! It must off the cuff and heated! I mean, come on man! Get with the program!! :lol::lol:::P::bday::devil::wub::ph34r:

 

Wild Bill :blues:

 

P.S. I hope to never see a base CP 10 caster. Having the Witch Queen at an 8, and then receiving GME to become a 10, really really really really sucks when the MD of most of your army is only a 10!! :wacko:

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Potential Mage Spells "off the cuff" ::P:

 

Stagger - Reduce Target Model's Mov by half until end of Turn

 

Hasten - Increase Target Model's Mov by half until end of Turn (a Speed Light) This cast an unactivated model in another troop, in conjunction with Speed would have some interesting effects.

 

Hone - Magically improve the striking power of a single target Model, +1 MAV until end of Turn. Light version of Bless for Mages

 

Dull - Defensive Magic capable. -1 Penalty to the MAV of an Attacking Model for all Melee Attacks until end of Turn. Maybe give it a small AOE - any Enemy model in b2b contact with the Caster at time of spell cast and make it like the Anti-Bless for Close Combat. Non Attack Spell against Enemy Model.

 

Ironhide - Defensive Magic capable. Provides Caster with +2 DV vs Ranged attack until end of turn. Stacks with Deflect, Cavalry and other Purchased Armor Upgrades. Hell, this could be both Cleric and Mage.

 

Spellfoil - Defensive Magic capable. Provides Castee with +2 MD untl the end of the turn. Stacks with Purchased upgrades.

 

Resurrection - Defensive Magic only. Cast in response to a Fatal attack. Caster makes check at CP of last Track. Unique spell. Cost is equal to Base cost of Model. Successful CP check + Tough/X vs 10 has Caster Return to life on their last Track at the far edge of Deployment Zone, at the end of the following Turn. Any spells or equipment previously purchased and unused are returned. The initial Corpse of a Model which successfully casts Resurrection disintegrates and no casualty marker is placed on the board. A Model Resurrected, if slain again, provides the Opponent with Bounty Points equal to twice the Model's cost to field (including spells, equipment, etc). May not be cast on a Model equipped with Divine Favor. Tough/1 granted by Dark Energy is applied to the CP check for Models of the Crypt Legion Affiliation.

 

Haven't even really thought too much about ones that might add a SA for awhile.

Something that grants Raider, Bloodlust, Big, Small, all seem to make sense.

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I'm perfectly happy in introducing a ton of snazzy low powered low cost spells to the game. (Been out of the loop away on a little holiday so I'm responding late). I just want low CP casters to become far more of a viable option.

 

I'll politely disagree that the true cost effectiveness of CP + a given spell is effectively integrated into the base models cost.

 

Perhaps my argument shouldn't be that the actual spell needs to be cheaper, but that there should lesser or greater cost associated with base CP.

 

Anyway, I'm content to have a rash of 5-10 point spells come out in the game, although like Qwyk I have thought many times about the +2 friendly modifier on Mage spells and the large affect it would have on the game. I think the key, with the introcution of such spells, would be to keep the spells relatively beneign. Meaning you wouldn't want to waste a CP 6+ casters actions on such limited spells when you've invested a large number of point on Fireballs and Iceshards, and you only have a limited number of spell slots to fill. Most of the potential spells noted in this thread are probably of that type. Useful, but higher CP casters would likely find more directly offensive and damaging spells more worthwhile.

 

It just saddens me a bit that low level casters are relegated to the sidelines or as secondary casters. I've never said they are useless, just that they are far less cost effective. I could care less if Ian is a crappy caster when put next to Kevis or Lunk, so long as Ian can be taken as a worthwhile caster. I think he could prove useful, especially in larger games where you could use him as a mop up unit. Still I'd like to see more supporting spells to boost such a caster effectiveness. Another big problem is that with limited Elite slots one needs to decide whether it is worthwhile to spend such a slot on this sort of model.

 

Is there any way around this? What is certain low level ELITES were given the ability to be taken by leader models without costing an ELITE slot. So that fielding them becomes more appealing? A new special ability granted to certain models ('Imbedded', or 'Integrated') allowing them to be taken without costing an Elite slot, but rather costing multiple regular slots (much like Cavalry models). The number of slots could be directly related to the base cost of the model (1 for every full 10 points) or could be more like Cavalry (a static 3-4 slots). In all other respects the model would be an ELITE (the Elite ratio for example).

 

I'm not saying let every ELITE model do this sort of thing, only a select few that are more likely to be special agents perminantly Imbedded in a given troop. Non-Unique models no more than 50-60 points costs. Such models could still be taken by a leader with an ELITE slot to spend on them in the regular fashion as well.

 

Finari

Ian

Thussia

Eredain

Malek

Lord Gauren

Sokar's Disciples

Moraia, Warbride

Ranthe

Gonda

Gankorak

 

I'm sure I'll catch flak, with people saying it isn't needed and is overly complicated. So be it, it's just a thought. It would make smalls games alot more varied and fun (500 point games where you don't see to many ELITES) and it might spice up larger games as well.

 

Another way to use these low level casters and heroes might be to build scenarios.

 

A scenario where you break the mold and put Valandil leading 4 Ians kitted out with spells, supported perhaps by a squad of Ivy Crown (Conlan, with 6 skirmishers and 3 Archers) and a Magical Beast of some sort (Hound of Judgement? Although it could be just about anything with the potential of being magical, Maybe an Incarnation of flame would be cool). Put the above into a defensive position and have a large size attacking force.

 

It seems like too few of us are playing straight battles, there are some decent scenarios out there and there is alot of room for exploration.

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How true. When the objective is just kill the other guy's troops, why would you take anything less than your best caster unless you were in a points crunch?

 

In a structured scenario, on the other hand, there can be many reasons why you don't have Valandil running around chucking fireballs.

 

I don't quite agree with allowing certain elites to be taken by units without an elites slot. It just opens the floor a little too wide for a type of trooper that is supposed to be rare.

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I don't quite agree with allowing certain elites to be taken by units without an elites slot. It just opens the floor a little too wide for a type of trooper that is supposed to be rare.

 

The problem is, while rare, nearly every Elite I've listed is fairly underused in the game because better options exist. Certainly Balthon should be considered very Rare, in that he is a Unique Cleric, but I'd argue that you are much much more likely to see Balthon on the field and used in a game than you are likely to see Ranthe (which there are likely to be dozens of in the entirety of the Overlord army). I'm simply looking for options that make certain non-unique Elites more appealing. They might not be 'common' but certainly they shouldn't be rare when compared to Unique models. And as it stands that doesn't appear to be the case. Players seem alot more likely to field Unique Elites (at least in the case of Mages) than they are to field the more common ones.

 

I'm open to ideas. The idea of low powered spells is appealing. Thinking outside the box and using low powered Elites in a different manner than higher powered ones might help.

 

We just need to strike a better balance in the game. I want to see this guys put down on the field more often, and appear more often in army builds I see posted on the forum.

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I'm really hoping the Merc faction book has this sort of resource in it. I know I'm not the only one holding my breath for this.

 

A good number of generic mage and cleric spells (I'm talking in the neighbourhood of 20+) and generic equipment (Some magical, but maybe even some mundane equipment items) would really add alot of fun variety to every faction, do wonders to promote the game. The Merc book would be a fantastic seller if it had this sort of thing available.

 

If it wasn't possible to put this into the Merc book, lets see a resource that has an expanded spell list, equipment list, and a good number of scenarios in it.

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Sounds to me what folks would like is a game supplement with additional spells. Maybe a compendium of all the current spells, faction spells, and some new ones (both common and faction specific).

 

Yes please. That's very much what I want. More common magic items also maybe?

 

As long as there was a spell called "Burninate" I'd be happy!

 

TROGDOOOR!!!!!!

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I am looking forward to the merc book very much!!! Just hoping it turns out awesome. I like my overlord, reptus and nefsokar armies, but I have a huge spot for my mercs. Rushing in with sticks and spears that have that "thrown together" look is some unlike any of the other factions, and it keeps my strategy wel hidden since they lack any "strong or weak" aspect generic keeps my opponent guessing

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reading this thread for the first time.

 

And admittedly, what was finally said on page 4 was what I was thinking since about post #3 on page 1.

 

The issue for me is mainly the ELITE status of the low level casters.

 

Low cost spells would be great but that just means more low cost spells for my big mages to choose from, not something to convince me to take a low level caster.

 

I actually do like the idea of having spells cost based on cp levels. But, that is just me, and not worth starting an argument on since that is very unlikely to happen.

 

I would also like to have more defensive spells (I like that stumble idea), and not just level 3 dispel, maybe a lower level dispel type that reduces the cp of the cast attack spell (reduces that moandain firestorm from a cp8 to a cp 6) - wouldnt negate it, but reduce the chances of success.

 

I have a bunch of spell ideas, but this thread is not the place for that, this thread was about how to try and make low cost casters more playable and worth spending $$$ on. And I think that if there is a way to do it, it would have to include making major changes to the basic RAGE ruleset to either of the following: ELITES or spell cost based on casters cp.

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I'm all for the idea of being able to add an elite into most units. I think that a restrictions like "one elite can only be taken once 50% of the troop slots is filled" (to stop from taking alot of small captains to get a lot of elites) along with "the elite's point cost (before spell and equipment) cannot exceed the cost of the leader" would make it viable without leaving it open for abuse.

 

I would also like to see more defensive magic spells in the game.

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