Comparing MSPs to Citadel, Vallejo, etc?

[vutpakdi]

My first Paint and Take is coming up next weekend, and the store is mostly a GW shop. While can cite some of the advantages of MSPs over Citadel (dropper bottle, flow improver in the paint, triad organization, wider range), I haven't actually *used* Citadel, Vallejo Model Color, or Vallejo Game Color so I can't speak from experience since I went straight to MSPs when I started painting again last year.

 

I've got a nice set of about 40 MSPs (almost all in triads) in my Paint and Take kit, so there's a good spread for people to try. But, I'd still like be able to say something to people about the paints and their relative merits.

 

So, if you were going to sing the praises of MSPs compared to other paints, what would you say? Why should someone buy Reaper MSPs over another brand?

 

Ron

[Jabberwocky]

It depends on the crowd you are selling to, I suppose. I don't have vast experience with other paints, but did (and still do) use VMC and VGC on occassion. To the uninitiated, MSP have these advantages in my mind: 1. Triads--I love 'em. It makes it much easier to highlight and shade for me. I paint slower than molasses, so having to mix my colors is no fun. 2. MSP's "stick" better than other brands. VMC in particular is pretty easy to rub off if you are not careful. 3. Due to the built in properties of the paint, MSP's require less thinning.

 

The sale to those with other paints is a bit more difficult, mostly because different brands are just different in their response to thinning. There is a learning curve whenever a new brand of paint comes along. 2 drops of thinner will behave differently with MSP versus VGC versus VMC. It just requires patience to overcome that one. Some folks will adapt and others will get frustrated and go back to what they are used to.

[wildger]

I found that MSP thins much better than Citadel. In addition, you need to add flow improver into Citadel paint to make it more user friendly. However, for those parts that you need to touch a lot. I would stay with Citadel. Once dried, it forms a hard "gel".

[JeffnJenna]

Hey there!

 

This sounds a little simplistic, but I think the best way to convert someone is to have them try the liner colors. You can describe till you're blue in the face, but nothing will compare to actually touching and doing for yourself. All I needed was to use some brown liner for the eye socket just ONCE and I was hooked. You could also point out the dropper bottle advantage in the sense that they don't dry out as fast so even though the overall volume is less MSP last longer. And you don't have to turn the closed jar upside down and swirl the paint around the lid to create a "seal".

 

oh yeah.... and if the cat jumps up on your painting table while you are getting a soda or something dropper bottles don't spill all over the place!

 

Just a few thoughts,

Jen

[eastman]

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You could also point out the dropper bottle advantage in the sense that they don't dry out as fast so even though the overall volume is less MSP last longer. And you don't have to turn the closed jar upside down and swirl the paint around the lid to create a "seal".

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Actually, the MSP bottles have 25% more paint than the citidel pots (15mL vs 12mL) - though they are smaller than the Vallejo bottles

[claymoore]

Maybe you can work some ideas in reverse from this.

Having over two hundred bottles of paint I tried MSP and prefered what I already have instead. Fifty percent of my paint is VMC. In comparison to MSPs:

VMC comes in dropper bottles and did long before Reaper caught on.

VMC dries more consistantly to matte than MSP.

VMC has more paint in the bottle.

VMC does require more thinning than MSP but I see that as an advantage since the coverage is very good when thinned producing even more usable paint.

VMC has 220 paints in their line.

VMC does require the addition of certain additives but again I see that as an advantage since I can add the high quality additives I want instead of having to use paint with additives that are undisclosed in both nature and quality.

I find that all paints will rub off when handled before sealing including MSPs. My models are not touched during painting therefore I do not experience rub off problems with VMC or any other paint I use.

 

Many of the painters I have encountered who prefer Citadel paints do so because they like the exagerated color intensity. If you can demonstrate that with MSPs it might swing some painters over to Reaper.

[smokingwreckage]

Compared to VMC (which I love, I should point out, and still use for some applications and colours)

 

- RMS is easier to thin to just the right translucency and wont fall out of solution as blindingly fast as heavilly thinned VMC.

 

- RMS takes about half the shaking of VMC, yes you still have to shake it a lot, but nowhere near as much.

 

- I personally find RMS better for washes, glazes, and transparent layering than VMC, but some VMC are better for quick coverage

 

- If like me you are short on time, the combination of triads, harder finish, and the fact you only need a bit of water for most thinning, makes RMS much friendler and more error-tolerant than VMC.

 

 

I acknowledge the following:

 

- VMC usually covers better

 

- VMC lasts longer per pot

 

Overall, for me, having used Citadel, Partha, and VMC paints, RMS wins. I still use other paints, but of especial note are the the following:

 

LINERS are fantastic.

 

RMS are very easy to use.

 

Triads are your friend.

 

The RMS skintones are the best on the market IMO.

[Vaitalla]

Yay for the RMS cheering section!

 

Many, many GW painters have switched over to RMS from Citadel--I can name you a lot of phenomenal painters who have, and I keep getting emails from old friends going--"Anne, tried the paint--LOVE it!" Heck, I just got an email from one of the top dogs of a GW Battle Bunker who's been referring his customers to MSP's even though he can get written up for it!

 

There will always be people who will stick to their guns and adopt a particular paint line because it suits their painting style; there's nothing wrong with this, and you probably won't be able to get those to switch, though as Jen said about, trying is believing. I actually wouldn't pressure anyone, I'd just offer your paints up so they can play with 'em a bit. If they like 'em, they like 'em! Though with GW people, you could also mention that Slayer Sword winners Jennifer Haley, Bobby Wong, Liliana Troy, and Tim Lison all use and endorse Master Series...Demon Winners Derek Schubert, Marike Reimer, Amy Brehm, Matt Verzani, Joe Orteza, Sue Wachowsky, Laszlo Jakusovszky, and the list goes on and on and on--all use Master Series, some in part and some exclusively. A lot of them came over from using Citadel and many came over from Vallejo. So quality painters really do like the paint, and endorse it over other lines.

 

RMS versus GW:

RMS has triads to help choose shading and highlight colors

RMS blends better

RMS has flow improver and triads

RMS still has good bright colors but they cover better than Citadel

RMS currently has an equivalent for almost every Citadel color out there

 

RMS versus Vallejo (MC and GC)

The biggest advantage Vallejo has over MS is coverage, which is apparently due to their vinyl base. Where they lose out is adhesion--the paint does not stick nearly as well. I was a big Vallejo user before I developed RMS and this was a specific issue I was out to fix. Vallejo also doesn't have the bright colors and warm browns of MSP's. And I personally can not STAND the amount of shaking I have to do with a new bottle of Vallejo (revisited this frustration recently when I was trying to match some of Vallejo's colors with MSP's and had to shake the bejeebus out of my sample paints to get anything but binder out of the nozzle...grrrrRRR).

 

RMS versus everybody

Nobody else has liners

Nobody else has our fantastic skintones

Nobody else has flow improver in the paint

Foundry is the only other company using the triad system

Nobody, and I mean *nobody*, else has a public forum where people like you can make a comment or complaint about a paint and have the line designer herself read and respond to your feedback with research into improving the paint and actual changes in the line based on customer feedback, sometimes within *one day* of reading about a problem. Nobody. Period. I am very, very happy that I am able to attack any problems immediately, hands-on. No other miniatures company can say this, no other paint company does this, because it's lunacy. But it's the best paint customer service that I can conceive of, as well.

 

I wanted to say thank you to all of you for all of your feedback, because it's letting me make this paint line the ultimate best a paint line can be, in my opinion, and without you guys it would be a lot harder fight! The paint really does sell itself, and a lot of that is due to you picky painters who care enough to let me know about problems.

 

--Anne

[Jubilee]

For me personally, it was the flesh triads rather than the liners that made me an instant convert to RMS. I hope you've got a couple of the flesh triads, and let people look at those beside that nasty orangey stuff GW & vallejo put out, and they'll never look back.. :)

 

/ali

[vutpakdi]

Many thanks to all that replied, especially Anne. I love my MSPs, but given that I lack a recent frame of reference, it really helps to have the replies.

 

Yes, I've got 3 sets of flesh triads for folks to use (fair, tanned, and dark) along with some Brown Liner.

 

Maybe this topic should be pinned (if not here, in the Black Lightning forum)?

 

Ron

[Vaitalla]

A correction, I forgot that the VGC's have the bright bright colors that the VMC's do not; I was thinking of VMC's when I made the above post, as they were the ones I used to use--VGC's *ruined* a Golden Demon piece for me and I swore never to use them again, so I'm afraid they don't stick in my mind much, though I know many painters who really like them.

 

Our most popular skintones are the Tanned Skin, Fair Skin, and Rosy Skin triads, for your reference. We are indebted to Derek Schubert for suggesting and color checking the Rosy Skin, promptly dubbed "Schubert Skin" by those in the know.

 

--Anne

[gwawl]

Funny how some people like or dislike something for the same reasons. One of the Black Lightning people let me try MS paints at my LGS. Tried rosey flesh. Spent a couple of hours working on a figure only to take it home and strip it. Hated it. And liners, nothing I can't do with the paints I have already. I find triads good for painting armies where you want everything to look the same. Too much of the stuff I see from painters using triads all looks the same. Goods painters work with them and beyond but many people just use them straight making their stuff look just like the other guys. Might as well put little numbers on the figs, matched to the paints. Anyway, I just wanted to add my opinion since I rarely drop in and found the topic of interest.

 

BTW SOME quality painters use MSPs. Many use other lines exclusively. People who are every bit as good as those mentioned. The statement "quality painters use MSP" indicates that you are not a quality painter if you don't. Not what was intended I'm sure.

[Spatula]

Well...seeing that you are located in Texas, pointing-out where MSPs are made will convert half the class.

[Wren]

I have to echo the suggestion of putting the skin tones on offer as a good temptation to get people to at least try a new paint. I've heard a lot of complaints that this company's skin is too orange or too pink or too whatever. The Reaper skin tones are pretty natural, and there's a great variety including more ethnic skin tones that are often ignored and hard to figure out how to mix. Heck, there's even undead and dark elf skin tones. I've discussed the paint numerous times with customers in the game store where I work, and for those that already have a lot of paint, the skin tones are usually what they're most willing to try.

 

I admire Derek Schubert mightily as an artist, so I almost feel a bit embarassed to admit that the Rosy skin triad is not a personal favourite as skin. I need to experiment with it a little more, but the one test mini I used it on looked kinda sunburnt. I like it a lot mixed 50/50 with the Tanned triad, and I love it for being a peach since I hadn't been able to find a good peach in other company's products. Just a case of different strokes for different folks, I expect. Since the Master Series has such a wonderful wealth of skin tones, there should be something in there that works for almost everyone.

[haldir]

but you all forgot about that every RMS includes a "severed head" agitator!!!

 

RM