eating my hat: Scrye Shot and Thorgram

[jdripley]

Today I played in the Forgewalk Marches Grand Prix Tournament. Given the recent debate in which I've cried foul on Scrye Shot and Thorgram in general, I decided that I'd play Thorgram, get smacked up one side of the battlefield and down the other, and then come back here and have a bit more playtest data showing that Thorgram doesn't work.

 

So that's what I did.

 

Only, I tied for 3rd, and Thorgram did well.

 

So I'd like to apoligize to Reaper specifically, and also anybody else who read the junk I was writing about Thorgram. I called Scrye Shot useless, I said that Thorgram was an insurmountable liability, and all sorts of lame things, and the fact of the matter is that I was just flapping my jaw with no true knowledge behind what I was saying.

 

So here's what I now think of Thorgram. I think he's a good model. He's not some uber, kick butt without any trouble type model. But he's not worthless either. I was able to make more ranged attacks with Thorgram because of his Scrye Shot than I would have without it (dwarves sure do clutter up a table pretty fast!) and so I admit that Reaper made a good move - having Scrye Shot with a melee heavy army was a good idea because he doesn't need to worry about LOS.

 

A few more comments:

 

There's lots of talk about models being "broken" and "gimped" (or underpowered...). And the typical litmus test we warlord players use is "can this model kill its point value in enemy models?" If the answer to this is yes, than it's either "just right" or it's "broken" if it can kill way more. And if a model can't kill its point value in models, it's considered gimped.

 

I think a new test is needed. "If the model dies, has it contributed to its point value in models being killed?" That might be more accurate. And perfectly accurate, I think, is "overall, has my army killed its point value or greater in models?" Of course that second test is nearly useless as far as discussion on specific models' relative power since there's so many variables. But that's why it's so accurate. Bot of these new tests factor in the dynamic conditions on the tabletop, and that's critically important. A model doesn't act alone, it acts in concert with others, and much of its relative worth is in how you use it.

 

So please forgive me for crying foul about Scrye Shot and Thorgram, and for complaining about something I didn't know enough about in the first place. I'm going to try to be more open minded about the worth of figures in Warlord from now on.

[wildbill]

Well, I am glad that you had a good day with Thorgram. I have never been able to get him to do squat. I'll stand behind my words and say he is still not worth 414 points. No way, Jose!! If the only way to play was to field him, then I wouldn't play. Logan is better, but with such a wussy DV, you have to immediately spend MORE points just to keep him alive. That sucks.

 

But...that is a topic for another thread.

 

Congrats on 3rd place none-the-less!!

 

Wild Bill

[Ranzadule]

I have never been able to get him to do squat.

 

Brilliant punnery!

[smokingwreckage]

I admit he got short shrift, though I think little of him.

[Sergeant_Crunch]

The other thing to keep in mind is that no matter how good the stats, there's always going to be those time when you roll nothing but 1's and 2's when all you need is a 3.

[spiritual_exorcist]

The other thing to keep in mind is that no matter how good the stats, there's always going to be those time when you roll nothing but 1's and 2's when all you need is a 3.

 

Except againt anything but the most mediocre models Thorgram still needs 8+ to Scrye Shot against the first damage track of a model. Scrye shot is best used as a mop up attack, meaning an attack against models who are down 1-2 tracks. I don't disagree it can be effective, but i'm not sure it's what I want my Warlord doing for most of the game.

[vejlin]

Seeing Scrye Shot in action for the first time this weekend, I have to say it IS a very good SA. Wasn't The King doing the shooting though but Naomi. The ability to snipe wounded models and casters without LOS was gold.

[Sergeant_Crunch]

The other thing to keep in mind is that no matter how good the stats, there's always going to be those time when you roll nothing but 1's and 2's when all you need is a 3.

 

Except againt anything but the most mediocre models Thorgram still needs 8+ to Scrye Shot against the first damage track of a model. Scrye shot is best used as a mop up attack, meaning an attack against models who are down 1-2 tracks. I don't disagree it can be effective, but i'm not sure it's what I want my Warlord doing for most of the game.

I was speaking hypothetically only to illustrate that any model sucks when the dice go cold.

[Ranzadule]

If one is going to field the King, you may as well give him the +2 RAV for another 75 points. :shrug: If someone is hiding a low DV spellcaster and you can drop a volley on them and get a hit, a +4 Scryeshot with Bane can end them. Or you can Scrye them first and then Volley or whatever.

[jdripley]

I didn't enhance the King in any way when I played him. I wanted to spend all available points on soldiers to fill out the army, so the only equipment I added was Musician (since that's a no brainer), spells for Ivar, and Divine Favor for Freya (not the king because Freya's job is always to hold the line, so she's nearly guaranteed to get hit, where the king was tasked with hanging back - may or may not get hit). I could have added +2 RAV, but that would have cost me 3 soldiers. I was outnumbered by a significant amount in 2 out of the 3 games I played that day, so the extra bodies turned out to be a good idea.

 

My opponents kept my "prime" scrye shot targets out of range. Low DV casters were prime targets in my eyes. However there were plenty of easy pickings left over. I took shots at archers, and hit consistently (6 is a fairly average roll). I picked off lesser orcs left and right, which really helped. The thing with fighting Grand Reven is that they outnumber you, and yes, you can thin them down, but there's a price to pay in blood for doing that. Scrye Shot allowed me to whittle the greenskins down without sacrificing any models. This helped ease the pressure on my poor maidens and bear, who ended up taking the brunt of the offensive.

[Ranzadule]

I may tweak the Reven list for the FW style scoring and then switch with my kid and i'll play his dwarf list and see how it goes. The idea is that since you must field a warlord, I made him a +4 and unkillable due to the ability to keep him out of harm's way for a 60 minute game. Jugger also had the ability to drop a bless on him for +5 on th e Scrye shot. The Bears are supposed to work together and have their flanks guarded by the warriors while the piercers rack up kills. It seemed like it could work on paper due to the time limits and scoring system. :shrug:

[Storminator]

I may tweak the Reven list for the FW style scoring and then switch with my kid and i'll play his dwarf list and see how it goes. The idea is that since you must field a warlord, I made him a +4 and unkillable due to the ability to keep him out of harm's way for a 60 minute game. Jugger also had the ability to drop a bless on him for +5 on th e Scrye shot. The Bears are supposed to work together and have their flanks guarded by the warriors while the piercers rack up kills. It seemed like it could work on paper due to the time limits and scoring system. :shrug:

 

Jugger was a little too eager to get the bears into combat. His King seemed to be doing a fair bit of killing tho.

 

PS

[Ranzadule]

Ypou think he's eager in WL, you should see that lil bastid play soccer! ;)

[spiritual_exorcist]

Seeing Scrye Shot in action for the first time this weekend, I have to say it IS a very good SA. Wasn't The King doing the shooting though but Naomi. The ability to snipe wounded models and casters without LOS was gold.

 

The problem with Naomi is that while I can use her with Scrye Shot, and have a wonderful 30 inch range, with a dismal RAV 2 attack, I can a much better effect by taking Malek, Tharian, or even Railor, giving them a LME, a Gruesome familiar, and loading them up with Convulsive Fear Spells if I am looking to field a model that can take Pot shots without needing LOS.

 

Malek 40

LME 15

Gruesome 30

2xConvulsive Fear 30

2xIce Shards 20

4xFear 20

=155 points

 

Still 53 points cheaper than Naomi (without spells) and attacking enemies within 18 inches of the Familiar (LOS not required for Convulsive Fear) on CP 6 vs. MD as opposed to Naomi's RAV 2 vs. DV.

 

Just a thought.

 

I find Scrye Shooters who are just Scrye Shooters a nifty enhancement to the game. THe problem is Reaper has slapped Scrye Shot onto a few models that would otherwise be totaly cool in a role indepenent of being a Ranged attacker. These dual purpose models end up being so cost ineffective because of their Scrye Shot ability, that their original purpose is overshadowed.

 

Naomi would make a wicked and indespensible Mage for the Necropilis if she didn't have Scrye Shot. Likewise Greka has the honour of being only 1 of 2 Cleric/Mages in the game, and THE KING would be a strict melee nightmare on par with all of the other melee Walords if his cost wasn't driven up so high.

 

I'm not so much against Scrye shot, but I'd rather have seen it kept on Archer or strictly ranged attack models. It really doesn't matter much to me, I'd like to see more models that I feel I can use, but all Scrye Shot does is remove a number of models from the lists I generally select from, which is fine. The bigger the game, the more likely I would be to take such a model, but most of them are pretty pricey unless I want to start fielding 2500+ point armies. Like others have said, perhaps such models were intended for larger games, I can accept that.

[Ravenwolf]

Seeing Scrye Shot in action for the first time this weekend, I have to say it IS a very good SA. Wasn't The King doing the shooting though but Naomi. The ability to snipe wounded models and casters without LOS was gold.

 

The problem with Naomi is that while I can use her with Scrye Shot, and have a wonderful 30 inch range, with a dismal RAV 2 attack, I can a much better effect by taking Malek, Tharian, or even Railor, giving them a LME, a Gruesome familiar, and loading them up with Convulsive Fear Spells if I am looking to field a model that can take Pot shots without needing LOS.

 

Malek 40

LME 15

Gruesome 30

2xConvulsive Fear 30

2xIce Shards 20

4xFear 20

=155 points

 

Still 53 points cheaper than Naomi (without spells) and attacking enemies within 18 inches of the Familiar (LOS not required for Convulsive Fear) on CP 6 vs. MD as opposed to Naomi's RAV 2 vs. DV.

 

Just a thought.

Nice thought, but Malek cannot have a GF. The Casting Model must have the Undead SA to be elligible for a GF. Malek is, unfortunately, only human...

 

As for Tharian or Railor, their CP's are 3s. I don't think it's worth pumping them up for the trick. Tharian is a *much* better Melee Elite than a Caster, which is what I use him for.