eating my hat: Scrye Shot and Thorgram

[spiritual_exorcist]

Nice thought, but Malek cannot have a GF. The Casting Model must have the Undead SA to be elligible for a GF. Malek is, unfortunately, only human...

 

As for Tharian or Railor, their CP's are 3s. I don't think it's worth pumping them up for the trick. Tharian is a *much* better Melee Elite than a Caster, which is what I use him for.

 

Ooops It didn't click that Gruesome required Undead SA (I've never used the above in a game so at least I havn't broken the rules except on paper)

 

Still, I would say CP 4 using Tharian or Railor would still be as powerful as Naomi using RAV 2 Scrye shot, and still much cheaper.

 

Railor 31

LME 15

Gruesome 30

2xConvulsive Fear 30

1xIce Shards 10

2xFear 10

4 x Bond souls 8

=114 points

 

I could get nearly 2 for the Price of Naomi, and CP 4 vs. MD is still likely equal or better than RAV 2 vs. DV in most cases (The exception might be if you were Mage/Cleric hunting). ANyway, it still works in principle. But Truthfully, Moandain with a Gruesome and a few COnvulsive Fears isn't much more than Naomi, so you might as well go that way, and no-one can argue he isn't a much better deal and more effective than she is.

 

ANd while I agree Tharian is a much better Melee Elite than Caster, I would argue that Naomi is a much better Caster than Ranged Combat Elite, and that is what I want to use her for, not Scrye shooting. But considering her cost, she ends up not being very good at shooting or Casting in comparson to most other models.

[vejlin]

I'm not saying there aren't alternatives. Just pointing out that Scrye Shot was very effective for Naomi. When she didn't have anything better to do (like firestorming people), she's snipe at casters, and had alot of success I might add

[spiritual_exorcist]

She's paying close to 150 points for that ability to snipe though. It isn't the ability that bothers me, it is the high cost. Perhaps it should be more heavily linked to RAV values. Sniping with a RAV 1 might only need to cost 25 points, whereas an RAV 2 snipe might push up to 50-60 points, and an RAV 3 80-100+, and RAV 4 150.

 

I'll stand by Scrye shot as very very cool, I don't disagree in the least. Just very expensive for certain models, considering most of them have it only as a minor secondary function.

 

At the cost being paid Scrye shots could be made into a free action usable 1/turn or an action untertaken at the cost of a Move action. After all most of the attacks are made by independent animal familiars (Greka, Naomi, and The King at least).

[Ranzadule]

I think Naomi is the best Scryshot ninja. You can't use her spells to attack and also Scrye shoot, but she has defensive magic, so you can pack a couple dispels on her and greater Accuracy upgrade and make her quite useful, especially in timed games.

[jdripley]

Try using her. The one person on this thread who has used her said she did well. Many people say the King is bad but I used him and found out he did well. So stop saying the model is bad and build a list with the model, and do your best with it. Then come back and talk about it. You don't want to eat your hat like I did, it tasted like cloth.

 

In fact my plan is to consistently use the King until I have him down very well and can use him to excellent effect. I think I'm realizing that in warlord some models are easy to use and some models are difficult to use, and that's ok because it's more fun pulling off tactics with difficult models.

[shakhak]

I think I'm realizing that in warlord some models are easy to use and some models are difficult to use, and that's ok because it's more fun pulling off tactics with difficult models.

Your original post gives me the warm fuzzies, I love it.

 

Also what I have quoted above is exactly what I've found to be true in the game. Although I also find that the harder a model is to use, the more they pay off once you figure out how to use them correctly.

 

I always think of rogues when bring this up, for the longest time nobody in our gaming group would play with them, then one day Aundine the Darkspawn rogue took out a bull orc, a captain, and three skeeters. Then people gave them a chance, now I see them almost every game.

I see the same thing happening with Cavalry models. At first they were shunned, now that people are giving them a chance and learning to use them more useful tactics are being found for them.

[wrightjd]

I think I'm realizing that in warlord some models are easy to use and some models are difficult to use, and that's ok because it's more fun pulling off tactics with difficult models.

Your original post gives me the warm fuzzies, I love it.

 

Also what I have quoted above is exactly what I've found to be true in the game. Although I also find that the harder a model is to use, the more they pay off once you figure out how to use them correctly.

 

I always think of rogues when bring this up, for the longest time nobody in our gaming group would play with them, then one day Aundine the Darkspawn rogue took out a bull orc, a captain, and three skeeters. Then people gave them a chance, now I see them almost every game.

I see the same thing happening with Cavalry models. At first they were shunned, now that people are giving them a chance and learning to use them more useful tactics are being found for them.

 

You kidding me? You know I've used Marcus Gideon from the get go . Man I love Marcus Gideon .

[jdripley]

http://www.reapermini.com/forum/index.php?...10906&st=30

A thread from a year and a half, two years ago, on the subject of Thorgram's point value and if it's appropriate or not. Seems like the same thing as what's going on currently. People crying foul over his point cost - only back then there were more people saying they'd used him and that he was well worth the investment.

 

By page 3 the thread disintigrates into speculation on dwarven cavalry, but page 1 is a good read in light of the current Thorgram thing.

[Ranzadule]

There is a slight problem with thorgarm though. He is costed as a warlord with typical "warrior" warlord stats and is in the 250ish range. He also has Scrye Shot which we all seme ot guess is about 150-160 points. Just as Naiomi can either cast offensive spells and advance or sit and Scryeshot, the king cannot both advance, taking advantage of his high MAV and other melee stats and at the same time sit still and scryeshot. The cost hits him a lot harder because Naomi's Mage ability is almost free and she's 40ish points like all mages, without Scryeshot. The king's abilities cost 200 points more and are equally as mutually exclusive as Naomi's.

 

Since it's an "either/or" with Scryeshot and other abilities, it should be a lot cheaper or make it an item that can be taken off of the character.

[rcrosby]

A Model that is overpriced can still be useful. That does not make it a good value.

 

Rich

[Ranzadule]

And now, our moment of Zen:

 

A Model that is overpriced can still be useful. That does not make it a good value.

 

 

If Scrye shot is a 160 point skill, I would rate it at 100-120 for Thorgarm and more like 120-150 for Naomi. I think it needs to be costed at least partially on the cost of that which you must give up to use it.

 

Of course, I also think that magic weapons should have their cost multiplied by the number of attacks a model has... 15 points for a LMW in the hands of a grunt or one strike sgt is not the same value as in the hands of a three attack warlord and that's not even considering Warmaster or the fact that a multi-wound warlord is a lot more likely to get into combat and use the weapon due to his survivability.

[Qwyksilver]

Yeah, but in order to equip 2 grunts with a LMW, you can instead, just field another grunt, and get 3 attacks at MAV +2 (Support) instead of 2 attacks at MAV +1 (Support) +1 (LMW). I'm almost always going to side with the latter.

[Ranzadule]

Battle Totems are sort of rated based on potential attacks.

 

I don't really know what my point was with the LMW. Maybe to say that the points are not perfect? Either way, people would be very happy to be able to field the King without the Scryeshot, with or without the ranged attack. No Werner Klocke model shouild languish on the sidelines due ot terribly high points cost. :p

[Qwyksilver]

I'm still guessing we'll see an alternate Data Card for Grimmie around 250 points that removes #RA/ RAV/ Scrye Shot, or there will be a third Dwarven Warlord that serves this purpose instead.

[jdripley]

Since it's an "either/or" with Scryeshot and other abilities, it should be a lot cheaper or make it an item that can be taken off of the character.

 

 

Not quite accurate. I meleed with Thorgram in all 3 rounds at the tournament. I scryeshotted all 3 rounds in the tournament. I paid for a melee fighter and for a ranged fighter, and that's exactly what I got.

 

Thorgram has low DV so you don't exactly want him leading your charge. So 1st half of the game, Scrye Shot with him. He'll be in the backfield and relatively safe (though as Ravenwolf made me painfully aware of, not safe enough sometimes!) Then once the field has thinned down, tanks are injured and the threat of swarm is reduced, feel free to engage Thorgram in the melee role. Once you actually use this model and are faced with real game situations with him, and take it out of the theoretical realm, you can see that Thorgram's stats are really beautifully put together.

 

 

I don't think I'd mind if they took Scrye Shot off of Thorgram. I can see myself enjoying the 150 points extra. However, I can also see myself adding Scrye Shot back onto Thorgram alot as well.