eating my hat: Scrye Shot and Thorgram

[Warwick]

Since I don't play with the king, I play against the king, my point of view is a bit different, and yet oddly relevant. I like to see the king. I know he has sucked up a lot of points. I've faced him a number of times and yet have seen him prove his worth on me. Maybe I'm lucky, maybe he's cursed, maybe this is all a dream. If I did play Dwarves, I would give him a try in games bigger than 1K where his point percentage doesn't seem so crazy.

[rgtriplec]

My opponents kept my "prime" scrye shot targets out of range. Low DV casters were prime targets in my eyes. However there were plenty of easy pickings left over. I took shots at archers, and hit consistently (6 is a fairly average roll). I picked off lesser orcs left and right, which really helped. The thing with fighting Grand Reven is that they outnumber you, and yes, you can thin them down, but there's a price to pay in blood for doing that. Scrye Shot allowed me to whittle the greenskins down without sacrificing any models. This helped ease the pressure on my poor maidens and bear, who ended up taking the brunt of the offensive.

 

 

Most games I play are 6 - 8 turns, lets say you play ten and the king rolls perfect and you kill a lesser ork every roll... what is that 200 points of orks. He still hasn't paid for himself.

 

The law of aveages say you are not going to roll the needed 7-10, 10 times. On average you can count on a 2 rav against a 9 dv to hit 4 out of ten. Is four orks worth 414 points? You could have fielded Logrim, 6 maidens, 3 halberds and a bear for less points. I'd bet with all rolling being equal they kill plenty more lesser orks than the king.

 

He would be worth fielding if he lost about 100 points.

[spiritual_exorcist]

A model does not have to pay for itself to be worthwhile.

 

Scrye shot, in the hands of an RAV 4+ model is very expensive, and you might only kill 150 point worth of models. But! Those 150 points might be very relevant. For instance you might wound a Solo, dropping it's DV or MD so your Mage or Archer in another troop can mop it up. You might kill a Cavalry model that might otherwise prevent your Melee Heroes from charging important enemy models. Or you might force your opponent to adopt a detrimental tactical formation simply by having the Scrye shooter on the field. The Scrye shooter might only kill a few models, but the ability might be vital to the game.

 

My problem is not with Scrye shot, but with the cost of Scrye shot on low RAV models, especially when Scrye shot is not a given models primary function. Naomi and Greka are alot more appealing to me than Throgrim, but if I was going to take any Scrye Shooter it would be Lorielle.

[Hellsgate]

If you’re aiming at lesser orks there's you first mistake... As has been said through out this topic you should be aiming at things like low DV mages or high point cost models that have already been hit, then enter hand to hand. For instance you aim at a mage, presume you hit that could probably be considered half the model base point value taken out there and then. Next turn the mage cast iceshards at one of you models, because of the wound, it's probably allot less likely to hit. If it fails that's half the caster's points, 10pt for the iceshard and half of the targets points that you can add to what the king just took out.

 

I know that there's allot of "if"s but the concept is there, and with the right deployment you could get as much as 2-3 shots before a single spell is cast. What people need to remember is that it's not always what the model took out but what it stopped from being taken out

 

EDIT: I realy need to take some speed typing leasons

[smokingwreckage]

So, the idea is that Scry Shot pays a premium because unlike other attacks you can ALWAYS choose EXACTLY the best target. Also you can ignore terrain. That's a lot of advantages.

[shakhak]

I would also like to note that JDRipley said that the enemy kept his prime target, such as expensive mages, out of range.

 

This is important to keep in mind. Thorgram did not kill the mage, but it sounds like he pretty much made it useless.

 

By forcing your enemy to stay 30" away from one of your own models, you limit that mages movement significantly. Forcing him to come out from hiding to take shots if he wants to target important models with spells, or to remain in hiding the entire game and being a waste of points.

 

This is a perfect example, of how a model can be worth his points, without having to kill his value. Think that everytime you keep that mage at the edge of the board, you just saved 2-4 grunts from being fireballed or firestormed... and you still get to take your attack on a model of your choosing.

[Storminator]

Most games I play are 6 - 8 turns, lets say you play ten and the king rolls perfect and you kill a lesser ork every roll... what is that 200 points of orks. He still hasn't paid for himself.

 

The law of aveages say you are not going to roll the needed 7-10, 10 times. On average you can count on a 2 rav against a 9 dv to hit 4 out of ten. Is four orks worth 414 points? You could have fielded Logrim, 6 maidens, 3 halberds and a bear for less points. I'd bet with all rolling being equal they kill plenty more lesser orks than the king.

 

He would be worth fielding if he lost about 100 points.

 

Let's look at an opposite extreme. I play Overlords. I bring Arik the Inquisitor with spells at about 150 points. I surround him with Onyx Phalanx, using the Phalanx immunity to ranged to protect Arik, and Arik's Dispel to protect the Phalanx. First turn, I advance my formation. End of the first round, the King Scry Shot's Arik. Casting power drops in half. Second round, King goes first and Scry Shot's Arik. Arik is dead. Magara Firestorms the Onyx Phalanx.

 

Shieldmaidens move into the breach, holding the center of the line. My elite warriors are dead, my mage is dead, and I've lost control of the battlefield. Not a bad day's work for an overpriced model. Oh, and the King is unwounded. He'll still trade blows with me later.

 

PS

[Storminator]

While that example was compelling enough to post twice, I'll remove the duplicate...

 

PS

[Ranzadule]

That is all true Stormie, but consider the fact that I can do it as well or better with Naomi, Greka or Lorielle, for a lot less. ;)

 

I think the base price of Scrye Shot is right (looking at the Helm of the Hawk's Price), but on the Derf King, it seems that the fixed cost is a little high when you add in the opportunity cost of lost options that do not work with it. I think that adjusting the cost on him would be a little involved and tricky, so the best solution for me would be to make his Scryeshot a dwarven version of the Helm of the Hawk and have it be an item that only he or possibly Magara can use.

[rcrosby]

Let's look at an opposite extreme. I play Overlords. I bring Arik the Inquisitor with spells at about 150 points. I surround him with Onyx Phalanx, using the Phalanx immunity to ranged to protect Arik, and Arik's Dispel to protect the Phalanx. First turn, I advance my formation. End of the first round, the King Scry Shot's Arik. Casting power drops in half. Second round, King goes first and Scry Shot's Arik. Arik is dead. Magara Firestorms the Onyx Phalanx.

Thorgram + LAU = 454 pts

Magara + LME + Firestorm = 133 pts

Total = 587 pts

 

Vale Archer + size 1 hill = 44 pts

Lysette + Firestorm = 119 pts

Total = 163 pts

 

And the Elves can do it all in one turn using Marksman! There is usually a way to shoot over size 1 obstructions...

 

Rich

[Storminator]

Let's look at an opposite extreme. I play Overlords. I bring Arik the Inquisitor with spells at about 150 points. I surround him with Onyx Phalanx, using the Phalanx immunity to ranged to protect Arik, and Arik's Dispel to protect the Phalanx. First turn, I advance my formation. End of the first round, the King Scry Shot's Arik. Casting power drops in half. Second round, King goes first and Scry Shot's Arik. Arik is dead. Magara Firestorms the Onyx Phalanx.

Thorgram + LAU = 454 pts

Magara + LME + Firestorm = 133 pts

Total = 587 pts

 

Vale Archer + size 1 hill = 44 pts

Lysette + Firestorm = 119 pts

Total = 163 pts

 

And the Elves can do it all in one turn using Marksman! There is usually a way to shoot over size 1 obstructions...

 

Rich

 

Not if my formation is on a size one hill...

 

And where are dwarves going to get Vale Archers?

 

PS

[Ranzadule]

Not even getting into the math, if you gave dwarven players the choice, would they take the King in games if he were 250(ish) with no ranged attack, many would say "yes." If the King costs 250 and Scrye Shot is an upgrade of 160, would players give it to the King or Magara?

 

Scrye Shot is cool and in the hands of a dwarf even moreso, but it is less cool in the hands of a melee monster than in the hands of a spell caster who can take defensive magic and never have to choose between using her expensive attacks and using her expensive scryeshot.

[wildbill]

Not even getting into the math, if you gave dwarven players the choice, would they take the King in games if he were 250(ish) with no ranged attack, many would say "yes." If the King costs 250 and Scrye Shot is an upgrade of 160, would players give it to the King or Magara?

 

Scrye Shot is cool and in the hands of a dwarf even moreso, but it is less cool in the hands of a melee monster than in the hands of a spell caster who can take defensive magic and never have to choose between using her expensive attacks and using her expensive scryeshot.

 

If the Dwarf King was 250ish points, would I take him? Absolutely! That puts him in line with other melee warlords. No problem!! Now, if they come out with a Dwarf warlord that is all range oriented, with minimal hand-to-hand abilities, that's ok too. I just don't like paying essentially twice for one model.

 

Would I ever upgrade the King or Margara by giving them Scrye Shot? Rarely. If I was playing in some goofy format (like a 1-troop 2,000 point army or something) or just trying to be funny and play with a one-trick pony army, then I might do that upgrade. Otherwise, that will be an upgrade that I would almost never use.

 

I agree that Scrye Shot can be powerful. But, a 160 point upgrade for an RAV 2?!? Blah. Yes, I know you fire 30 inches without LOS. That's nice. If I have anyone important, I normally pack some armor on them. Why? Not because I'm afraid of Scrye Shot, but because I'm afraid of archer fire. So, in Stormy's example, his mage has a base DV 8. If he is making his army to go against the King, why would he not take GMA for his mage? That's a no brainer as far as I am concerned. Then the King needs an 8 to hit me. No where near an autohit. I'll boldy run my mage out there in an attempt to get my Firestorm off, banking on him not rolling an 8+. If it happens, ok, bad luck.

 

Now, if Stormy was trying to make an all-comers army (say for a tourney) and didn't have the 30 points to spend, and then he had the unfortunate pleasure of facing an army with a Scrye Shot model, well, all I have to say is go balls-to-the-wall and run that mage out there and see if you can cast that Firestorm! Rely on luck to see you through. Use your mage as bait to draw the fire. Then, let everything else go in and kick butt.

 

I am glad that Jim had such an awesome time with the King in his tournament. I played in a tournament in June where a kid took the King. We were playing 1,500 points. He attempted to do exactly as Jim did, except he lost every single game to the man. Most games weren't close either. I played him in the first round and still had over half of my army alive when I killed off the King. Was the King tough? Sure. He finished off Khong-To without the Khonger even so much as scratching the King. Did that have to do with the King being uber-hoss? No. It had everything to do with me rolling like crap the round, and the King whacking me three times on defensive strikes!

 

Until I have evidence that every Dwarf player out there has loads of success playing with the King, then I might give him another chance. I mean absolutely no disrespect to you, Jim. You obviously played really well to have the success you did in the tournament while fielding the King. Kudos to you! Right now I will stick with Logan, who is better in that you know he is designed to be a cuisinart, but his DV is still crappy for 306 points.

 

I'm holding out hope that the third Dwarf warlord will be the best of the bunch. That was another reason why I got the Razig army. At least Razig is relatively cheap (229 points), so dropping some armor on him isn't a big deal. I play Razig's Revenge if I have to play a game where a warlord is required.

 

Wild Bill

[jdripley]

Wildbill, no disrespect taken at all. I understand that 3 rounds in a single tournament isn't a world changing playtesting benchmark. I plan on bringing him every time I play 1501 and continuing to see how he does, and I'll update my position if it changes - but if I do it will be based on my own playtest experience, not my own theoretical thinking.

 

Shakhak, you're exactly right. Unfortunately for me Aysa can be just as nasty out of range >.> but that's an isolated situation, the vast majority of casters need to be in close to do their damage.

 

Ranz, I've gotta disagree. 1st count, the King is not a melee monster. MAV 5 sure is impressive, but DV 10 is not. He can be very dangerous but you've got to be careful with him in melee due to his fragile defense (which shouldn't be changed, dwarves aren't supposed to have high DV on the whole). 2ndly, that using Scrye Shot removes his melee role. Yes you can't melee and scrye in a single activaton - but name me a melee warlord who can potentially do damage on the first round? Unless you Teleport him, but then you need a grade 3 cleric and yatta yatta. By himself - no other warlord has offensive options 1st round. So are you wasting the King's melee ability on round 1? Nope. How about round 2? For the most part round 2 is the "crash into each other round." With a DV 10 you ought to be very cautious with the King when the enemy has full strength troops running around willy nilly. So it'd make sense to hold him back as a reserve for round 2 as well. No wasted melee potential, and he still gets to scrye that round. At round 3 and on, the battle could be going one of a million different directions, and I can chose to continue to Scrye or I could move the King up and swat things with his axe. And at that point I'm using both of his abilities in the same game, I haven't used anything, and I've been able to pick off some targets before Thorgram is even in range to be hurt himself.

 

Since he can and does use both of his roles in the same battle it isn't terrible that he pays for both. If you split Thorgram into two different models, one model would be hanging out for the first half while the second would be shooting, and in the second half of the game the shooty half would be hanging out waiting for things like LOS and whatnot while the melee half chopped things up.

[wildbill]

... - but name me a melee warlord who can potentially do damage on the first round?... - no other warlord has offensive options 1st round.

 

There are actually quite a few warlords that have ranged attacks. Not too mention all of the ones that are mages (stupid Witch Queen ). Granted, they don't have a fabulous 30 inch range, and may need to move into the open to do their thing. That is a downfall.

 

Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean?

 

Wild Bill