Balancing quality and quantity

[Brushmaster]

The failings of the huge melee character has seen their demise at my club except for the occasional experimentation by myself and SE . Elites that get a run are mostly clerics with the occasional Mage but never heros or rogues . While most solutions proposed , such as use of terrain , etc; more times than not , I've seen the horde of Reven and Skellies take out the Elf and dwarf players at the club just because of the sheer numbers . What makes matters worse is that the hordes end up with more initiative cards as well .

[vejlin]

Still if tweaking is needed, we should avoid ending up in the other ditch, where soldier models are taken only because they're a requirement.

[Outkast Samurai]

Well here's a 'not quite' real life example. In SCA fighting even the best fighters who can pretty much take out most other fighters 1 on 1 will go down fairly quickly when ganged up on. But now give that fighter a couple of other fighters, just regular guys not necessarily uber fighters, for support and back up and the tide is turned back to the point where they aren't all that easy to kill. So as Kim and moosey and some other have pointed out, in Warlord a 200 point character is going down to 200 points of grunts but a 200 point character with 60 points of grunts backing him up will be on par with 260 points of grunts.

[Sergei]

I've always wanted to take an Army of Nefsokars vs a hoard army with lots of small units, Especally the Reven. Just so I can use "fell the First born"

 

I've dealt with a few hoard armies. They are beatable, but if your using a smaller force you must divide and conquer and choose the battles. When I've accomplished this I tend to win. Anytime I don't and take the force head on I get creamed.

[wrightjd]

I have only one problem with swarm armies, and that's the fact that it's pretty much just swinging the odds of the game in your favor, by giving you more dice rolls and higher probabilities of hitting (especially since this system is very much based around the number 10 and no matter how sweet your unit is, or how many points he's worth, or how much DV he has, a 10 is a 10 is a 10). I think swarm armies are just a manipulation of the statistics behind the game, but I really have no qualms with playing against them - though I will almost never field one.

 

To put this in perspective - a 173 point model (Sir Dauron) against 110 points of Bull Orc Fighers(That's 5). We'll say Sir Dauron uses the terrain to his advantage and only 3 bull orcs can engage him at a time. This gives each bull orc a MAV of 5. So first round the bull orcs have a flat .4 chance to hit. Dauron has a .5 probability to hit the first round. We'll say he gets lucky and hits 2, and the bull orcs get unlucky and only hit him once. So then next round two more Bull Orcs step up into the place of the dead bull orcs (who each have a .2 probability of getting back up), and they now have a .7 probability to hit. This means 2 of them are probably going to hit. Sir Dauron falls down to a .4 probability to hit, and we'll say he gets lucky again and hits 2. That still leaves one bull orc up. This is discounting his horrid special ability, but the Bull Orcs are also shorted 63 points, which could be used to buy about 3 more. So 63 points less of bull orcs have a high probability of defeating Sir Dauron, with one still standing at full health at the end of the battle. This is also assuming Sir Dauron get's excellent use of terrain, almost to the point that he's backed into a corner. Under almost any other circumstance at least 4 bull orcs would be able to engage him with good use of terrain. This is how swarms manipulate the statistics. One shortcoming of this model is that it ignores defensive strikes in a sense.

 

Another thing to add is I made a chart about how to maximize units and their relative strength, and I think I found I could field like 40+ templar knights/Ironspines with Sergants and 1 captain.

 

Also about the idea of adding in 60 more points of grunts so to speak, I don't think 2 crimson knights or 3 skeletal breakers are going to make much of a difference, especially considering they also get about 2-4 more units.

[SaintRigger]

I think the key factor in character vs. grunts is support.

 

I also agree that 260 point character vs 260 points of grunts (assuming there are more than 3), the favor should fall to the grunts - but 260 of a charcter supported by grunts (say 2-3 grunts) vs just 260 points of grunts - then the favor should fall to the character because of his (usually) ability to strike multiple times, or first, or warmaster... etc.

 

There is indeed also the factor of who charges whom which can also (and should also, IMO) tip the scales in favor of the charger.

[ecs05norway]

A good point was made, though: There's too few ways for an elite opponent to exploit low DIS. Some models have Horrid/Holy/Empowered, which makes it difficult for low-DIS models to charge them, but that's about it.

 

I have NEVER seen a Mounted model exploit Shock. No one's ever out of cohesion. That 18" radius lets them roam over the entire board, unless you're using a HUGE board.

 

So, hm. How to deal with things.

 

Consider reducing cohesion to 12 inches - if you feel this is too significant, reduce it only if the leader is wounded. This represents a wound decreasing their ability to command their troops.

 

Idea number 2: Being in cohesion does not make a model immune to Shock, etc; it just gives it a bonus on the DIS check - say, equal to the number of wound tracks the leader has remaining.

 

Idea number 3: Have more things cause DIS checks. Examples include: Being charged by a model with more wounds currently remaining than yourself; a nearby or adjacent model being killed; your troop's leader being killed; your troop's Standard-bearer being killed, your army's Totem being defiled.

[Outkast Samurai]

I have NEVER seen a Mounted model exploit Shock. No one's ever out of cohesion. That 18" radius lets them roam over the entire board, unless you're using a HUGE board.

 

I've actually seen it exploited. At Origins this year Qwyk managed to kill off Lunk and a couple of goblins in the center of the group with his piercers then charge in with his bear rider on the smaller, and thus out of cohesion, group. He exploited it very well although the goblins then proceeded to make every single one of their Dis checks and maul the bear but that had little to do with not making use of shock. Qwyk's dice pretty much hated him that entire game.

[vejlin]

Idea number 3: Have more things cause DIS checks. Examples include: Being charged by a model with more wounds currently remaining than yourself; a nearby or adjacent model being killed; your troop's leader being killed; your troop's Standard-bearer being killed, your army's Totem being defiled.

 

I really like the idea of having to take a DIS check when charged by a very powerful enemy. I mean would you not be just a little bit worried if your were charged by Ymrilix or some other CC monster? Ofcourse gaining a shaken token and standing around seems less like a proper response to an Ymrilix charge than running away does.

[Qwyksilver]

 

I have NEVER seen a Mounted model exploit Shock. No one's ever out of cohesion. That 18" radius lets them roam over the entire board, unless you're using a HUGE board.

 

I've actually seen it exploited. At Origins this year Qwyk managed to kill off Lunk and a couple of goblins in the center of the group with his piercers then charge in with his bear rider on the smaller, and thus out of cohesion, group. He exploited it very well although the goblins then proceeded to make every single one of their Dis checks and maul the bear but that had little to do with not making use of shock. Qwyk's dice pretty much hated him that entire game.

 

I've actually had Shock work with me a few times. I did it to Pete as well during his Magnificent Seven scenario VERY effectively. Forced 5 or 6 of the villagers to run screaming in the face of my Beastriders.

 

Shock is one of those things that is very difficult to set up, although some ranged attacks targetting a leader and then some Beast or Mounted action works nicely. When it does work, it's beautiful. Because two models charging in both cause checks. If both are successful, you're got a guy out of Cohesion and taking 2 Shaken Tokens = retreat. Then you don't even have to initiate combat. Just run up and go RAWR! and make scary faces. Oh yes, and if you manage to use only a single movement action with your two guys and make em run away...there's no reason you can't use that second movement action to cause another Enemy to run away.

 

And oh boy did the dice hate me that day.

 

I do agree though. Cohesion means next to nothing in the game. I would like to see it and Discipline find more uses.

[Storminator]

Another idea: when the leader dies, all models in his troop must regain cohesion. So models that aren't within the 2" chained cohesion must do nothing but move actions until they are in cohesion. If a model is in B2B, it must try to break. If it fails the DIS check, it must try to break again.

 

I think this rule would both penalize low DIS troops, and encourage people to run troops a little more ... cohesively.

 

PS

[Qwyksilver]

Another idea: when the leader dies, all models in his troop must regain cohesion. So models that aren't within the 2" chained cohesion must do nothing but move actions until they are in cohesion. If a model is in B2B, it must try to break. If it fails the DIS check, it must try to break again.

 

I think this rule would both penalize low DIS troops, and encourage people to run troops a little more ... cohesively.

 

PS

 

Models with Fearless and Ronin being exempt.

[Storminator]

Another idea: when the leader dies, all models in his troop must regain cohesion. So models that aren't within the 2" chained cohesion must do nothing but move actions until they are in cohesion. If a model is in B2B, it must try to break. If it fails the DIS check, it must try to break again.

 

I think this rule would both penalize low DIS troops, and encourage people to run troops a little more ... cohesively.

 

PS

 

Models with Fearless and Ronin being exempt.

 

Certainly Ronin, I could see Fearless going either way. If Fearless troops had to "re-cohese" they at least wouldn't be in danger of Retreating.

 

PS

[Warwick]

I've always liked the fact that cohesions meant nothing in Warlord. It's a skirmish game so lets skirmish. I frequently spread out troops. It makes for much more interesting games. It makes every model count, instead of being just a visual bookkeeping tool that can't do anything without some leader. My troops are trained professionals. They can kill without a leader pointing a sword and saying, "Kill!" Anyway, if all my troops had to maintain a cohesion chain, the game would lose a lot of its charm for me. And add unneeded complexity. What does the game gain from forcing models to hold hands?

I'm trying to make a point AND be funny. If I fail, blame the stomach flu I have.

[rcrosby]

I think it was Saintrigger who made the point...

 

Take your 200 point hero along with 60 points of grunts and take on 260 points of enemy grunts. I think you'll find that the Hero plus grunts is pretty good if his flanks are protected. THe other thing is that if one side is all grunts and the other is a hero, bandage is not so cool fro the grunts, but gets a lot of bang for its buck healing the hero. I like to teleport my Golem and then get him stuck right in. once he is swarmed, I firestorm him and kill everything around him as Balthon gets ready with the healing. It's fun and you always have los to the Golem.

This doesn't work in my experience. I have yet to play a game where the big boys could not be swarmed eventually. Yes, sometimes I have to spend a turn or two to peel off the supports, but the result is inevitable.

 

Also, if the Golem is swarmed, it is not standing around undamaged with a swarm around it; it is dead with a swarm standing around the corpse. You might recoup some points from fireballing the swarm, but the Golem (+GMA?) and a fireball is many more points than 6-7 grunts (although better than just losing the Golem!) The only times I have seen Bandages be especially useful is for healing up the lucky hits on the big boys after being shot at by hordes of archers needing 10's to hit - very frustrating for the archers!

 

Rich