The Spiked Chain

[Dragon Snack]

But then the spellcasters will get an unneeded boost, since their spells bypass DR...

 

And if remembering what stacks with what bogs you down, remembering what weapons overcomes the DR of what armor isn't a step in the right direction either...

[joshuaslater]

You're right. I'll find some other system. If I even bother.

 

Roleplaying is barely holding my attention now. I'm almost strictly a tabletop gamer now.

[Dragon Snack]

Umm, OK. I'm a little confuzzled about what the debate here was then.

 

Sorry if I offended you.

[joshuaslater]

I'm pretty burned out on D&D entirely. I hope my post didn't come off as smarmy. Reading it again, I was a little gruff. No worries.

 

My apathy towards the d20 system will in no way prevent me from buying at least three of the spike chain sets coming out soon from Reaper. Can't wait to get converting with those.

 

Good lookin' out.

[ReaperWolf]

And if remembering what stacks with what bogs you down, remembering what weapons overcomes the DR of what armor isn't a step in the right direction either...

 

True, unless you keep it simple:

 

Certain weapons possess the Armor Piercing quality. Most weapons with spikes tend to rip through armor very effectively, in d20 terms armor doesn't work as well. The AP quality isn't a bonus to hit, but rather the it eliminates some if not all of the Armor Bonus of the target. Weapons like spiked maces, spiked mauls, picks, stillettos, cinquedeas, and crossbows fired 30 feet or less have a AP quality equal to half of their damage die rounded down. This is the amount of Armor Bonus negated. Such weapons don't penetrate shields. Any magical bonus, such as a +1 leather armor, is retained even if the Armor Bonus is completely negated by the AP.

 

Another interesting tweak is the Shield Bonus negating quality of all flails. Flails were specifically manufactured to make parrying with weapon or shield very difficult. In my own games shield users only benefit from a +1 Shield Bonus or up to the shields Magical Bonus when attacked by a flail. So a +1 large metal shield only grants a +1 AC bonus against flail attacks. Certain creatures with Reach and whip-like attacks may also count as a flail attack, GMs perogative.

 

Weapon selection in d20 has become more about damage and critical hits as opposed to choosing what works best against a target's defense which makes little sense to me hence the rule tweaks. Read Conan fiction, our favorite Cimmerian frequently makes references to selecting weapon X to counter opponents dressed in armor Y.

 

Some like it simple, others complex. As for myself, I prefer completeness and consistancy.

 

Happy New Year!!

 

>>ReaperWolf

[joshuaslater]

You're winning me over ReaperWolf. Those ideas sound good. I'm going to see what WHFRP and Mordheim use rules wise for flails, and then go back to seeing what I'll tweak in D&D or some other system.

[smokingwreckage]

Flails get a bonus or perk against sheilds pretty universally; in Rolemaster they also fumbled much easier and hurt a lot more when they did.

[ReaperWolf]

Flails get a bonus or perk against sheilds pretty universally; in Rolemaster they also fumbled much easier and hurt a lot more when they did.

 

Unfortunately, fumbles in Rolemaster & HARP aren't all that common and when they do it's arbitrarily determined. The Fumble Ranges of weapons are fixed, meaning rolls above the range or below the range don't result in a fumble. For example, say a Great Flail has a Fumble Range of 8, meaning a 1d100 roll of 1-8 means a roll on the Fumble Table and then the fun begins. Now if the roll is 9+ no Fumble occurs but skill isn't a factor, just a unluck of rolling within the Fumble Range. Say you have a huge bonus, say +200 for an Essence Master (not impossible) then the arbitrary 1-8 range kicks in regardless of bonus so very skilled or incompetant characters have the same chance of fumbling with any weapon 'cuz of the arbitrary range. Wonky!

 

As for myself, I prefer results based resolution as it is in Decipher's Lord of the Rings powered by CODA. In LotR you roll 2d6 and add mods against either an opposed roll or against a set TN. A sliding scale provides in game benefits and consequences for good/bad rolls. If you roll really high you can accrue unexpected benefits, roll low and you suffer detriments. Rollind double 6's allows you to roll another d6 and add it to your total, successive 6s allow you to re-roll and add pushing the results to mythic Sauron fingering/Shelob impaling levels. Naturally the reverse is true, after all what are mythic successes without disastrous fumbles, rolling double 1s means you roll a d6 and subtract, 6's explode downwards. In my Third Age Rhovanion saga, the lowest rolled result thus far is a -24, the end result led to the character going mad from a poison and perishing after a few days of raving lunacy.

 

Best!

 

>>ReaperWolf

[King Tiger]

I've been a D&D player for 23 years now, cut my teeth on Basic and 1st Ed Rules. I can still remember the chart in the Players Handbook that listed Armor vs. Weapons now that was complex for anybody let alone a 13 year old youth just learning the game mechanics. I can remember thinking this game is so fun but all these "rules" can really make play drag and become too tedious. Compound that with the Weapon Speed table for initiative roles and THACO became a breeze to figure out by comparison. Then a year or three later I read an article that was about lord knows what but the gist of the author's point was that D&D has NO RULES, only guidlines! The game is meant to be customizable, And if you can warm up to that notion it really makes the game so much the better. Use what weapons you want and enhance or "nerf" them as you see fit! Dont like the Dwarven Urgosh? Dont use it! It all goes back to careful planning especially as a DM, yes it is time consuming but taking the time to customize your guidlines and going over them with your players makes for a much better playing experience.

PS Didnt Gogo Yubari use a pretty nifty chain weapon in Kill Bill? So if you want to visualize that weapon in action just watch the fight scene between her and Beatrix (The Bride) If you havnt all ready.

PS II As for such a weapon's effectiveness against heavy plate remember it wasnt always about piercing your opponents armor right away. Blunt weapons were about stunning an opponent silly first THEN you slip your knife into his arm pit while he is counting stars.

[joshuaslater]

King Tiger--you're helpin' me work through this. I'll borrow both Kill Bill's from my friend at my earliest convenience!!

[Mourningcloud]

I would like to second everything King Tiger said, and add two little words:

 

Ghost Rider.

[rgtriplec]

My point again. These exotic weapons are from a culture that did not have heavy tanks, i.e. a fully armored knight in steel plate riding a Clydesdale size horse in barding. These weapons may have their uses, but I'm highly doubtful of their efficacy in a medieval European fantasy setting.

 

The sword and dagger techniques I learned in Modern Arnis are good for current times, where the armed/unarmed strikes are the same, and people don't wear metal armor, but these fighting styles come from tropical climates, and what might be a killing slash to someone would not penetrate plate armor over chain. As for entangling an opponent, or disarming them, I think they would be more effective against someone in cumbersome armor, but I don't think the game mechanic was designed for realism. It's just for the coolness factor.

 

There are a few misconceptions in your ideas. First warhorses were not the huge 17+ hand high Clydesdales, Shires and Percheron types of today. Yes, they were sturdy horses but generally not much bigger than todays quarter horses. The Fresian Knights rode Fresians, Teutonic knights commonly rode Traekehners and Andalusian Normans were very popular. They were generally 16 hands and a riding pony not a draft animal like a clydesdale. The super draft animals of today Clydesdales, Shires and Percheron etceteras were developed in the 19th century. Medievil draft animals were much smaller usually 15 hands but still bulky. So warhorses were not super horses in any sence.

 

The second is that oriental warfare didn't have knights. A samarai's armor in the 12th century weighed the same as its European equivilents, both being about sixty pounds.

 

The third is that martial arts chain weapons were some kind of ninja, something hidden up the sleeve gadget. The meteor hammer was two weighted balls between 1 and 5 lbs each attatched to a heavy chain. They used centripical horse and in expert hands could easily decapitate or send a knight flying off the back of a horse. The weapon used by the schoolgirl character in Kill Bill is an actual weapon and they were made in heavier sizes than the schoolgirls.