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mooseyjoe

Player's feelings on the upcoming changes to warlord

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If two years of playing Warlord earns the right to rant, what does two years of NOT playing earn? Oh, wait, that didn't come out right. ::P: Just a little good-natured ribbing, not an attack. Seriously, though, I've paid my dues, too, just in different ways. We all have.

 

I've been waiting for the right set of changes to be made to Warlord. At first, I was the one who had to change -- my misconceptions about the game and the miniatures, mostly. I was frustrated by too many bad experiences with changes made by T$R/WOTC/HA$BRO, GW, etc., and in smaller measure with Reaper's orphaned Apocalypse game. I assumed at first that Warlord was more of the same. I was wrong.

 

Now, currently, let me see if I have wrapped my head around this whole announcement. Faction books: more timely, consolidated, less costly (per faction). Rules updates: consolidated and annually given away, rather than scattered amongst websites, forums, downloads, self-printed data cards (with "now you see 'em, now you buy 'em" pictures). Models, factions, SAs and equipment: more balanced. More viable models on the table, no major extra cash outlay, more options and a better game. (I think the formula might be Core Book + Journal(s) + Chronicles = Play.) With several factions in each Journal, you can get your favorite and a couple more for additional SAs, spells, equipment. Plus there's that 'know your enemy' thing, all for about what a single faction book cost previously. Hmmm...I'm still not seeing the downside to all this.

 

Well, okay, I suppose if you hate change, any change, even for the better and resist it vehemently, then you're not going to like this, no matter what. Sorry, folks, as I see it a lot of people asked for the changes. Some didn't ask, were just happy with things the way they were. There must have been more that saw skewed numbers and off-balance play. The market voted with their wallets, demanded change through questions, arguments, comments, requests, playtesting and a host of other feedback avenues. The designers saw a game that wasn't exactly what they had in mind, so they asked to make some changes. Surprise! Change happens.

 

At risk of undermining my own cliche-ridden rave, I can actually sympathize with those who are change-resistant. I dislike and resist change, too, for many of the same reasons. I am still an AD&D 2nd Edition holdout because I invested so much time and money into it; I don't feel like starting over, learning another system, nor do I have another ton of cash to throw at it. Of course, that means I haven't played in years, but that's another story and this is about Warlord. Every time I decided to jump into Warlord with both feet, another change was around the corner or just announced. It seemed best to wait for the dust to settle. Additional cure for insomnia posted here.

 

But, I'm not giving up. In fact, quite the opposite; I'm encouraged by what I've seen so far. The sample cards and general direction of better matching stats to factions seems to spice things up, getting away from useless warlords and vanilla grunts across the board. I look forward to getting my hands on the Journals and Chronicles. Now I don't have to wait another year or two for several faction books. My core book is not obsolete. My models are not obsolete. In fact, some that I thought I would never use -- King Thorgram -- might just stand a chance of being worth their points. Maybe. We'll see. Almost all of these things are changes I've really wanted to see -- faction data released before I'm too old to care, rules consolidated so I spend less time chasing errata, more time for playing, etc. So, I refuse to worry or get angry about the changes.

 

I will just paint the Dwarves I want to see on the table and let the stats fall where they may. I will get out and play, even if the minis are painted, half-painted or just primed. I will get out and play under the current rules until I see the new stuff and decide to buy, adopt or ignore. I will enhance my Dwarves when their 'book' comes out, and start my Elves when theirs arrives. I will get out and play even if my opponent brings an army of brilliance in Grenadier & Ral Partha goblins, a bag of DDM orcs and (soon) LE skeletons, all to proxy for Crusaders. Why? Because I just want to get out and play. Change can be good, change can be bad. I'm just going to roll with the changes, and hope everyone else does, too.

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Well I hope no one thinks I was attacking their posts because I didn't mean to come across that way. I was only tring to defend my reason for my opinion. I also wasn't trying to say I was better than anyone else in ANYWAY. As for me being informed about the "snip" Thanks. I guess I got a little defensive on that one. As for me ranting I know everyone who works for Reaper will be all for the changes. Its their changes after all! I'm just giving an outside opinion from someone who doesn't play CAV and thats not connected to Reaper, so no harm meant! And Thank you for your threads Reaper Peeps they are very helpful in answering some of our questions and concerns! And again I personally don't mind if ya all want to yell and scream and say the worst possible things. I'm just being the Rabble Rouser on purpose, because someone needs to be! And I dont mind taken the fall. I'm just stating my opinions. I have to say, I think I will leave you all to discuss this among yourselves. I won't be playing Warlord again until the game is finally completely changed! Then who knows! Thank's all, it's been a lot of fun!

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Snip??? I'm speaking from 2 years of playing this game against every army in the book, multiple times, and about every scenairo available! I've also played against some of the best players in the world including Lord Bassen and Kelcore when they were on the top of the world rankings!! And sorry to bring you guys into this, just to prove a point, because ya know I think your both awesome! But I won my game against Scott and won the first game and loss the second game with Kelly. They were all great games! So I think I've earned the right to express my opinion! Specially since I didn't think I was being rude at all. I was just throwing out potenial issues.

 

I mean look how everyone said for a while Crusaders were worthless, Well Kelly sure knew how to play them. You can't blame any army for being bad, honestly I don't think there really was a bad army out there. Save maybe Razig's (because Razig was that whole army) but Razandule sure knew how the play them well. To me that doesn't mean go out and raise just the price of the soul cannon's it means be prepared for them. Maybe they where a little cheap, so tweek them a little ONCE. Using all battle reports and public opinion over at Least 75 to 100 games played by different people. Bring your best army to the field and play them smart! Whoever wins, wins! No game is 100% fair to all that play! AND THATS NOT THE GAMES FAULT its the skill of the players!

 

OK sorry to rant again. (Not really :grr: ) Obviously none of us know what the new changes are going to be! Even the play testers because the changes aren't made yet. Now I'm sorry, I play the Dwarves and I love to play them but 4 track grunts aren't Warlord and never have been! And its sure not properly aligning anything. Yeah I've seen some of the testing stuff like others have said and I'm not giving ANY detail but I've seen armylist's that will DOMINATE everyone else!! And that was just from seeing the info. for a few min's!

 

From everything that i've heard so far (from playtesters) things actually match up quite well. Scared of bringing your 400pt melee monster to the game b/c 100 pts of warriors will take it out, don't be. He'll give as good as he gets. Solos. . .are solo for a reason, "we don't need no stinking back-up." I have yet to hear of one army dominating another army, but that is why we are playtesting it. some of us actually try to find the loopholes and exploit them, point them out, and try to have them fixed. It's kind of why I ranted about Aysa so long. She was horribly broken before, I haven't gotten the chance to see her new stats, but from what i've heard (boy., i'm saying that a lot) the issue has been addressed.

 

How do I mean she was broken. I've played against the crypt legion many times. My FLGS owner is a CL player, so is another gamer at the store, and another friend and they pound on me regularly. I have never beaten a CL army with her in the list. I'm happy to see the game evolve and if the Reaper peeps can turn it into full on tactics with a little luck from the dice i'm all for it.

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Thank god that I am interested in Warlord due to miniature painting rather than competitive play. To me, what Reaper saying is that the current format is not working well. This, I totally agree and there were many threats to support it. It is fair to say that the new change is the "2nd edition". Although I welcome the change, it is hard for me and many players to swallow.

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I am fairly new to Warlord and I also Play CAV...

 

some benefits of standardizing I can see is to draw in new players. I like what i see in the changes that have been posted.

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Well, in Any Other Game the problems would go unremarked for about four years, then the New Rules would come out and even if they didn't nix your army you'd have to buy The New Rules and Your New Armybook plus any other rules documents you wanted (best friends and favourite enemies).

 

While many feel Reaper is changing too much too fast, it can said with similar conviction that they are fixing problems as they arise instead of holding out for the "republication of revised everything" wherein everyone has to repurchase all of their books.

 

That said, I can see why this would be hard to swallow, as many people have had to revise their collection several times already. While that really does stick in anyone's craw, I think Reaper are trying their best to keep people in the game and treat their customers right. I also get the feeing they're trying to rapidly evolve the game now to attain a level of perfection where it can stand for years to come. Like it or not they are relatively new to wargaming rules-sets and they are trying to set up a solid basis for future publications- this is going to involve learning at many levels, and Reaper show every sign of learning most lessons quickly and well.

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For what it's worth, News of this update has me dusting off my Warlord model case. I'm looking forward to seeing what has been wrought.

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Just to throw one more voice into the stew...I can't wait to play the new changes. Face it, we wrote about changes needed and Reaper responds. No other game company I know of has done that. I'm impressed.

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Mongoose did with Starship Troopers, but to a lesser extent.

 

Thing is, we're not talking about stat changes this time, scale is going to change, amount of time, and everybody's stats are changing.

 

This is the largest overhaul Warlord has undergone and it hasn't even been a year since the last one. It's a little disconcerting and is hard on everyone that's trying to get others into the game.

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From a newbie perspective, it only looks like stats are changing. To me, this doesn't seem like that big a deal. The core rules are still the same. Models will behave differently now, which I think is a good thing. I like the new damage tracks shown in the previews. I thought that damage tracks were too sever before, but now they've made it so someone who is injured isn't completely useless right away. Again, I'm new, and this won't affect me hardly at all, but it still seems like the right move.

 

I think the biggest change will be for the existing players who will have to recompose their armies. But look at it as an opportunity to breathe some new life into an army you may be getting tired of. It like when I change cards in my Warcraft decks. A few new cards sometimes make things much more exciting.

 

Christomyers, don't be too worried about getting new players in. If the changes are half as good as the playtesters think, then its going to be a positive change.

 

Perhaps what you're afraid of is that prospective players will not feel that Warlord is a stable environment based on the changes made so far. I think thats what a lot of the people here are feeling. But the rules are stable. The foundation is solid. Look at it this way.....I have a really strong kitchen table. My girlfriend likes to change the tablecloth VERY frequently. This may slightly alter the appearance of the table, or the way it affects the vibe of the room. But my table is still strong.

 

Do I get my fanboy pin yet?

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For reference, what should we call the next update? 1.4 seems the most likely, a little small compared to the difference between 1.0 and 1.2. It might be more properly Warlord 2.0

 

There seems to be two major issues with next update to Warlord - the change in release format, and the changes to the rules

 

I'm basically happy with release format changes. To require players to have only the rule book and one "latest and greatest" Rage update seems to be quite fair. I'll probably pick up Kruger's Journals, though. I love me my elves, and they seem to be languishing.

 

If Reaper were to include instructions involving getting the rules update by snail-mail in the core books, I'd be happy. While I'm online at Reaper often enough to get the updates, there are those in our community who aren't.

 

The rule changes, while they make me nervous, are IMHO necessary. While my army is probably bottom third competitive (I take some models for fluff and attractiveness), the Crusader player who loves cavalry and archers is sunk. Correcting the long-standing problems in the game balance away from hordes is needed.

 

I will have to play with the multi-wound grunts before I'm comfortable with the change. From a Scadian point of view, one-hit one-kill made sense to me. I fear the game becoming too cumbersome to play well for large scale combat.

 

Bottom line (except for the signature) is I'm cautiously optimistic.

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I have to agree with Stormseeker, being a newbie myself. The changes don't appear to be that 'huge' to me. Of course I can understand how someone who has put together a fav army is worried about having to change that army, but it doesn't sound like much changing will have to be done. I for one am most happy about the way Reaper is dealing with providing the changes to players. You can't beat "free"! One of the main reasons I have avoided GW stuff was because of all the extra stuff you have to buy to play, then the constant changing of the rules so you have to buy more books.

 

As far as getting new people to play, I think the changes could help pull people in. I know I have friends that are more interested in playing now and none of them even play any of "my dorky games" (as they put it ::P: ).

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well, just using those three data cards to go by, I can already make a few assumptions.. ( I know assumptions can be dangerous but, hey that is what this thread is for, right...? ) And then some opinions based on those assumptions...

  1. In 1.2 the average soldier model has 1 damage track, a single attack, and hits other solder models 20-25%% of the time. Assuming that that Dwarves in these datacards have some of the higher DVs of soldiers, and looks like the average attack is going to be 2 attacks with 30-50% chance of hitting. This means my first assumption is that this game will be a little slower due to more dice rolls and models lasting more than one hit, but it will also be much more vicious, bloody, and more satisfying with each die roll as things dish out damage.
  2. Assumption two is simply that if the base soldiers have 2 attacks at 30-50% hit rate, then I cant wait to see wait the leaders and elites have on them...
  3. I see a wide range in model cost. But, sinply seeing that the base soldiers being quite a bit more expensive, I figure the average game will no longer be 1000-1500, but rather 1500-2000 or more depending on the resulting changes to upper models.

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well, just using those three data cards to go by, I can already make a few assumptions.. ( I know assumptions can be dangerous but, hey that is what this thread is for, right...? ) And then some opinions based on those assumptions...
  1. In 1.2 the average soldier model has 1 damage track, a single attack, and hits other solder models 20-25%% of the time. Assuming that that Dwarves in these datacards have some of the higher DVs of soldiers, and looks like the average attack is going to be 2 attacks with 30-50% chance of hitting. This means my first assumption is that this game will be a little slower due to more dice rolls and models lasting more than one hit, but it will also be much more vicious, bloody, and more satisfying with each die roll as things dish out damage.
  2. Assumption two is simply that if the base soldiers have 2 attacks at 30-50% hit rate, then I cant wait to see wait the leaders and elites have on them...
  3. I see a wide range in model cost. But, sinply seeing that the base soldiers being quite a bit more expensive, I figure the average game will no longer be 1000-1500, but rather 1500-2000 or more depending on the resulting changes to upper models.

 

I played some tests yesterday and heres what I learned.

 

1. don't assume, the game will be slower to start with but only because you are remembering the old stats and data cards. once you get the new ones memorized the game flows just a quickly as before. you just get to roll more dice, which gives you more wounds, which kills the multi-track models just as quickly as before.

 

2. oh, just you wait. their not leaders for nothing, not to mention the solos. . .who no longer need a bunch of weenies for support. . .their solos :devil: !

 

3. we played 2000pts (three way game) with two Elf troops, three Overlord troops, and four Dwarf troops.

 

Overall, a great time. Wish I could say more. :devil:

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