Beta Thoughts

[shakhak]

Frenzy SA

A Model with this SA may increase the number of MAs or Defensive Strikes up to twice their

normal amount. However, for every extra MA, or Defensive Strike, taken, the Model receives a

cumulative -1 penalty to its MAV for all of its attack rolls. A Model that chooses to Frenzy, may

not also make a First Strike Attack.

Disable SA

A Model with this SA both reduces the number of MA and the Dis of a defending Model. When

a Model with this SA conducts a Melee Attack Action, the defending Model loses 1 MA and 1 to

its Dis. Additional Melee Attack Actions from multiple Models with this SA against the same

target Model will stack, and the target's MAs can be reduced to 0. The defending Model will

always receive 1 Defensive Strike. This effect lasts until the next time the Model using this SA is

Activated. The Disable effect is broken if either B2B contact is broken, or the Model using this

SA takes any other action besides conducting a Melee Attack.

 

I think since Frenzy says "A Model with this SA may increase the number of MAs or Defensive Strikes up to twice their

normal amount." a model with 5 attacks can frenzy up to 10, then you subtract the Disable out of that value. Official clarification is always prefered, but that's my take on how the rules work together.

[jdripley]

This is half question, half comment: In the old system, magic was particularly deadly because your chance to hit was pretty high, compared to melee or ranged attacks (at least, on the commonly-played mages). This was balanced out by the fact that you paid for the ability to cast, and paid for the spell. Now magic is comparatively less lethal, yet we still pay for all the same things. Does this factor into the costs?

 

Additional comment stuff - I do really like that ranged heroes are now more powerful, relative to mages (I used to never take my ranged heroes and would instead choose a cheaper mage with iceshards). But now that my ranged heroes are cheaper than the mage, and have equal or greater chance to hit than the mage has, AND doesn't have to buy spells on top of it all, it seems that it is essentially a flip-flop.

 

And a question for other players: Since I've really only had much experience with Dwarves and Nefsokar, neither of which are particularly powerful in the mage department - are players of other factions finding my thoughts to hold true for them? Or is this just a unique case to mage-lite factions? If it's a unique case, it's not a terribly big deal.

[Brushmaster]

I find that I use a greater variety of models now , including melee heroes but I'm using mages less . Spells just don't bite and I'll have a Mage if I can fit it in after everything else .

[shakhak]

I've play tested alot of Darkspawn and to say the least, I always field alot of mages with them. My most recent game had the nefsokar player crying broken half way through. I had 4 casters on the table: Guros, Rauthuros, Witch Queen, and a Pain Mage and they were tearing everything apart.

 

Offensively, my mages gave me the power to take very strong models off the board in a single turn. Many spells do multiple points of damage so I would knock off 2 to 4 damage tracks with my casters then an archer would take a shot or two to finish them off once they were weakened. An old strategy, but it's effectivness has doubled with archers becoming grunts and it's frequency went up now that all models have multiple damage tracks.

 

Defensively his clerics and mage couldn't get crap for spells off because he was almost always within 6" of one of my casters. So he was either getting bolts tossed at him, or spells were being rolled with the -6 penalty.

 

 

In summary, I've been darn happy with how my mages have been performing. I've been maxing out the number of spells they can take, and using every last one throughout the game.

[DBlagg]

Someone else who plays the Necropolis may have already asked or mentioned this and if so, I apologize in advance.

Are there any plans to change the Gruesome Familiar to make it better? I'll grant you that in the old rules it was extremely munchie and needed to be changed. However, the change that was made has pretty much made it useless since a lot of the mages already have the fearsome ability. Now, instead of it being super munchie, its mostly useless.

[Qwyksilver]

Come up with some suggestions for the Gruesome. Test them out on the table to see how viable they are, and send an email to Emmel with the results.

 

This is still a Beta version of the rule updates, so nothing is of yet, carved into stone.

[jdripley]

Gruesome Familiar - since Undying Hosts isn't innate on Aysa now, a good half of the "brokenness" is gone. Why not give GF its own stats and have it be an "alternate casting point" for the mage, like it used to be? Only tone it down a bit by requiring the GF to be in the spell's range from the caster (so mostly, w/in 18 inches), and require both the mage and the GF to use up a combat action to cast the spell. Give the GF only like 2 tracks and not-stellar DV, and not-huge movement (4? 5?). As the GF takes damage, nothing happens to the mage - 2 tracks and low DV will mean anybody seriously intent on killing it can pull it off without trouble, but you aren't penalizing the user by having him lose spells when it's hit.

 

Give the GF Fearsome just for kicks and so that the user has a small advantage of having potentially shaken models around after a GF is destroyed.

Don't give it a #MA at all - it's a floating hunk of flesh that just channels spells, it can't attack worth beans.

[DBlagg]

Gruesome Familiar - since Undying Hosts isn't innate on Aysa now, a good half of the "brokenness" is gone. Why not give GF its own stats and have it be an "alternate casting point" for the mage, like it used to be? Only tone it down a bit by requiring the GF to be in the spell's range from the caster (so mostly, w/in 18 inches), and require both the mage and the GF to use up a combat action to cast the spell. Give the GF only like 2 tracks and not-stellar DV, and not-huge movement (4? 5?). As the GF takes damage, nothing happens to the mage - 2 tracks and low DV will mean anybody seriously intent on killing it can pull it off without trouble, but you aren't penalizing the user by having him lose spells when it's hit.

 

Give the GF Fearsome just for kicks and so that the user has a small advantage of having potentially shaken models around after a GF is destroyed.

Don't give it a #MA at all - it's a floating hunk of flesh that just channels spells, it can't attack worth beans.

 

I like that idea, but would suggest a minor change just for ease of play. Since all mages have relatively low DVs anyway, give the GF the exact same stats as the mage using it. Other than that, make it work just like you said with the GF taking damage and potentially being destroyed instead of the mage losing spells. Or if you want to add an element of danger to it, when the GF is killed, the mage loses his/her highest point spell remaining? or loses a turn due to psychic feedback? or whatever?

[Stubbdog]

I am not a big fan of having the gruesome familiar be like it was before. But, if it were to be, I would suggest basically making it a spell like undying host instead of an item. So, it would have its own datacard just like undying host. Its just that it might have some sort of magical ability as part of their own datacard.

 

Then it would be totally independent of the original caster, have no affect on it, but maybe a mage caster of its own with some innate CP4 bolt or scare or something.

[Qwyksilver]

Innate spells are really hard to point. How do you know how many times a Model is going to cast a spell, how effective it will be and and create a balanced cost for it.

[jdripley]

Hmmmm, how about it is a spell that brings forth the GF, like you said, and the GF has the mages stats but is only capable of moving and casting, and shares access to the owning mages spell pool?

[spiritual_exorcist]

Ok, Weighing in with all my comments in one place, I'm sure there are alot of faction specific things going on in their independent threads, and likely I'll touch on very little that hasn't been discussed as of yet, but I've read through this thread, and being as how I havn't been on the board in more than a week I can't find the time to look through everything now, so I'll dump all my comments here: (Keeping in mind I have on looked at the beta, not played any games, so everything should be taken with a grain of salt)

 

Fist and foremost, kudos to the peeps at Reaper, for the most part I'm pretty happy with the changes (not sure the game is a better game with the new datacards, but the game appears to be alot more balanced and many things appear clearer).

 

I love the use of the (Special Ability)/X mechanic that we used to see on a limited number of abilities (tough, bloodlust, runner etc), becoming more widespread, especially with the use of ranged attacks (Critical shot, and Marksman).

 

Defensive Magics new mechanic is alot more appealing.

 

I think the Way Disable works now is great, allowing not only to inhibit your opponent but to still take your attacks.

 

Flyer/Burrow movements as seperate movement blocks was a much needed fix.

 

Frenzy is a pretty nasty and interesting ability, obviously pretty powerful for high MAV models, but I'm intersted in seeing how it works with lower MAV models that have it.

 

 

Fearsome is a great fix, getting rid of the Horrid, Empowered, Vile, Holy and replacing them with this is nice streamlining.

 

Backstab: Why does every model in the game (except the Hound of Judgement) have Backstab/3, why bother making it a Backstab/# ability if there is absolutely no variety int he ability of various Rogues? Why does every backstab model have the same proficiency for it, when there is a great mechanic in place to include variety (Kara Foehunter and Marcus Gideon with baskstab/2, and Lola Darkslip and Selthak with Backstab/4 or 5 would make the ability alot more interesting to me).

 

360- On the subject of backstab, this should clearly negate the backstab abilty but is not described as doing so.

 

Innate Spells, or the lack of them, is something I'm sad to see go...and I'm wondering how effective Warcry will be with an Innate CP of 2 instead of 4, looks like this will be the domain of my Omburs rather than in regular use with my Khargs. (wouldn't mind seeing a +2 innate CP for Captains and a +3 for Warlords with regards to Innate:Warcry as a faction ability).

 

Troop Capacity: This is a huge negative for me, I'm quite disappointed to see troop capacity, and the number of models intended to be used int he game as a whoel drop. I'd have rather seen troop capacities left higher, and a standard game be pointed at 1500-2000 rather than 500-1000. Compulsory Warlords not needed until a higher points cost; but I've always been of the opinoin that if you don't want a warlord model you shouldn't have to take one. Most of the new Warlord models make a pretty good case for their inclusion in a fighting force anyway, and unlike previous editions you could be putting yourself at a disadvantage by not including a few heavy hitters (Like a Warlord). Mostly I'm peeved because Reaper has gone out of their way to package their models in 6-9 packs of soldier models, and now these packs, along with the high costs of some of the models, and their adept status mean that I have to be playing some pretty big games to be fielding my 9 Bull Orc Berzerkers (as an example)...the new datacard format and points cost cater alot better to the 3-pack size of blister.

 

Shock: Wow, isn't this ability totaly awesome against low Dis models!!! Essentially it's the new First strike (although don't get me wrong, i really like how First Strike works now as well, makes pikemen very cool).

 

Ridge Runner, has anyone else ever thought that this ability should go beyond just negating rough terrain? I've always thought it would be cool to see this ability negate the cost of elevation changes in a limited manner (making it free to jump over that 1 inch wall, or move up the 1 inch hill). Just a thought, I'd being willing to pay a steeper points cost.

 

Tough/X, Wow, this is a big disappointment for me, I really dislike the fact that so fewer models have this ability than used too. I like the Tough mechanic, and I liked the fact that it was fairly widespread before (Vale Warriors, Skeletons, Lesser Orcs...these losing Tough/1 saddens me, I mean it is hardly a powerful ability, considering it can be negated with a loot action).

 

Warmaster, I'm shocked by the number of models that picked up this ability, I would have prefered for it to have remained much much more Elite.

 

Spellcasters, Many of these seem more appealing, although they seems extremely vulnerable to missile fire and melee attacks, I like their stat blocks for the most part, I'm just wondering how easy they will be to protect and whether taking them is too big a risk or not. I do like alot of the spells, although as always I'd love more variety (despite the fact that there is a fair bit).

 

OK, onto my direct criticism of certain models, 95% of which I love, and many of which have really been made useful or balanced where previously they were problematic (Many of my complaints are about the disruption of the previously established feel of a given model, that in alot of cases seem to have occured without reason):

 

+Crusaders:

 

Kristianna-DV 9 in this foremat of thegame with so many more attacks likely to be coming her way makes her appear very very fragile, and while I might put her on the board, I wouldn't do so without some sort of magical protection, and I dare say most players feel the same way. Why not give a a bit of a boost, either DV 10, or Deflect/2 to make her that little bit less vulnerable; to be fair, the Lady is decked out in a fair bit of armor.

 

Lady Jehanne-Granted I've never been a huge fan of her, but in this incarnation Sir Danel just tromps her, making it unlikely I've put her on the board, giving her Shock would really make me reconsider her, even with this likely to boost her cost substantialy (I know the Ivy crown Lancers don't have that ability, but surely she could be an exception) Just my opinion of coarse, she just feels bland.

 

Sir Broderick- Well if there is a Crusader model I am most troubled with it is Broderick, he has gone from living in Brannor's shadow, to now living in Conlan and Malcolms. Fundamentally I don't see much wrong with him as a 44 point Captain, but let's remember thatn Broderick is the leader of the Justicars. Why the heck isn't he imbued with some of the Justicars traits, at 44 points vs. a Justicars 53 he looks like a Junior Justicar not their Captain. SOmething is needed to give him a boost up to Justicar level (Discipline 8 would be a start, I can handle DV 11 on him, but every other Justicar has Warmaster, and every other model swinging a two-handed weapon has a substantial boost to their MAV, so if not a direct increase in MAV, i'll admit MAV 6 is pretty decent, at least give him 3 attacks). With +1 Dis, +1#MA, and Warmaster (or even just Warmaster) I could see a real reason to field Broderick, as opposed to simply fielding him because I needed a Captain (In which case I would nearly always pay the extra point and use Brannor, just like I did in the previous edition). This model was originally intended to be the Staple Captain of Crusader armies, and he doesn't feel that way to me anymore.

 

Malcolm-Why does this model need or warrant healer? What changed between editions to Reaper decide he should have this ability? There are plenty of Healers in the army already, Malcolm doesn't need to be one as well. Jus one of those, 'Why did they need to add that' gripes.

 

Darkspawn

 

Demon Imps- Lets face it, Warlord garners alot of it's feel from the D&D genre, how cool would these guys be with Poison Strike, I'd pay the points cost for that.

 

Dwarves

 

Wow, did this army ever become an army of nasty little buggers. Look at that bloody MD!!!

 

Burrowing Dwarves- I'm really concerned we're going to see a cheesy little Dwarf in a miners helmet witha pick axe as a model for these guys...If so, then scrap this idea. If we're talking about some sort of mini elemental, or burrowing by magical means then I don't mind the statitic block itself.

 

Elves

 

Ardynn-Why no backstab/#? Even 1 or 2? There doesn't seem to be any reason for him to have lost this ability.

 

Mercs

 

Mercenary Warrior-Not sure how these guys made it at 18 points when they are compared to the worse stats of the Lesser Orcs in the Reven list that are also 18 points.

 

Necropolis

 

Lord Kentaur-I can live with this guy the way he is, he seems balanced, but like alot of my complaints he seems to have lost something in this edition that I really felt was a part of him. He was my favorite Captain in the game, not because he was unbalanced, just because he could bring 2-Elites to the board (which he still can), and because I felt he was clearly Moandains tough as nails right hand man that could give the Vampires of the Necropolis a good run fot heir money (now Elsabeth and Osric kick the crap out of him, and Azarphan the Death Knight is more than his equal). Not every model needs to be a supreme combatant, but when the feel of a model is alreay established it is a shame for that to be diminished.

 

Athak-+2 Discipline, that's the only change between Athak and a standard Crimson Knight, just a lack of creativity and effort in my opinion, this guys is the leader of the Crimson Knights, give him something that makes him feel that way, anything, an extra damage track or +1 MAV or Tough/3, any of those would go a long way to making him a leader model.

 

Bloodseeker Vampire-Why no Outrider ability on this guy? He was previously a Solo.

 

Overlords

 

Iks-Going from able to lead 20 models to only being able to field 11, the troop size of mob models being reduced down really shows with him. That being said, I suppose 11 is a pretty big mob now, although +5 bondslaves or Bondslave Survivors isn't all that impressive an addition to a troop (Granted both models are cheap, and look cost effective, so it is hard to say). Just a general gripe about models like Iks and Neek losing their massive mob abilities.

 

Ymrilix- Who did this guy peeve off so much to be taken down suck a huge notch? Once the premium tank in the game he isn't much more than a chump now. A Useful model, but this gauy should be Sir Dauron tough, not relegated to being Rograns equal.

 

Reven

 

Reaper!!! What did you do to my Lesser Orcs, Ouch what wimps. I'll just have to adjust my playing style (I was having a hard time getting them to work in a cost effective manner anyway, at least in comparison to other models they are dirt cheap...but it breaks my heart to see how wimpy Kak'Urg and his boys are).

 

Like I said, many of my gripes are personal, feel free to comment yay or nay about anything I had to say.

[Brushmaster]

Backstab: Why does every model in the game (except the Hound of Judgement) have Backstab/3, why bother making it a Backstab/# ability if there is absolutely no variety int he ability of various Rogues? Why does every backstab model have the same proficiency for it, when there is a great mechanic in place to include variety (Kara Foehunter and Marcus Gideon with baskstab/2, and Lola Darkslip and Selthak with Backstab/4 or 5 would make the ability alot more interesting to me).

Not technically correct . There is also Gars Necka with Backstab/2 .

360- On the subject of backstab, this should clearly negate the backstab abilty but is not described as doing so.

I've asked for a clarrification before , obviously got missed .

Sir Broderick- Well if there is a Crusader model I am most troubled with it is Broderick, he has gone from living in Brannor's shadow, to now living in Conlan and Malcolms. Fundamentally I don't see much wrong with him as a 44 point Captain, but let's remember thatn Broderick is the leader of the Justicars.

You've obviously not read and downloded this . He's now cost 64 points with 5 DTs in the final edition .

[Arbiter10]

Hey, SE, been wondering where you were. Regarding Malcolm, I'm pretty sure the faction book says that he's a Lightbringer. (I'd check, but it's at my friend's house at the moment). The faction book also says very clearly that the Lightbringers are paladins, so from a fluff perspective it makes sense for him to have Healer. As far as it goes during gameplay, I like having tons of models with Healer because it makes the Crusaders that much more resistant and gives them a niche that no other army comes close to filling.

 

Regarding Lady J, true she isn't that spectacular in terms of combat abilities, but she's modeled after the Light Lancers, so it makes sense that she isn't much more powerful that a regular Light Lancer. I just think that if one wants to use her, she should be leading Light Lancers and/or other Ivy Crown models; leave the Lion's Lancers under Sir Danel's command. The Light Lancers are your hit-and-run cavalry, so don't expect Lady J to perform any differently; get in, kill stuff, then use their MV 12 to run away and be healed. Also, she is the cheapest warlord in the game now (93 points), so at least she isn't overpriced.

[VelveteenRabbit]

Skralla the Black needs a gun. I'm a big proponent of having the model match its abilities in game. Honestly, when I ultimately stopped playing Warlord was almost the same time that Skralla came out, it was the nail in the coffin for me that she didn't have a ranged attack. She's a unique model. I don't think it's going to break the Reven Faction if they have one little goblin with a pistol.

 

Other than that, I'm really looking forward to giving these new rules a shot! I'll try not to pass judgment on how I think things will work or not work until I've actually seen them in game...