Beta Thoughts

[Kelcore]

OK, I have to chime in on Mercy/Conversion. Only your leaders get to do it? They only have a 50% chance of doing it? Hmmm... where have I heard that before. Oh yeah! My Reven! Only my leaders get to Warcry, and they only have a 50% chance of doing it.

If more than Crusader Leaders can do Mercy/Conversion, Reven should get the same thing!

 

Considering Warcry is also a Cleric spell, that CAN happen. :)

 

Mercy/Conversion? Not so much.

 

ah considering any cleric can use healing grace which oh yeah is half the army

 

Right, and the Healing Graces example brings us back to the same ol' Conversion arguement and its likelyhood of working. Brushmaster has good points about Enrage and Ridge Runner as well (see above). Basically, I feel your pain as far as the Warcry thing goes, but innate spells have always been iffy at best, and really isn't the focus of (IMO) a Reven list. It's just a bonus.

 

Again, this is just my opinion, YMMV. But to me, the Tomuck list is more about the brute-force and having the Tomuck themselves be grunts rather than adepts, rather than the innate spells and their likelyhood of success.

 

Again, YMMV.

[Brushmaster]

There are only 2 non leader Crusader clerics/healers and the Hospitaliers .

[Shakandara]

I'd like to add that part of the big issue back in 1.2 was not that Crusaders could almost auto-convert in the right circumstances, but they got to have their cake and eat it too and come back for 3rds, as the model trying to be converted made its Dis check from its worst track, came over at whatever DT it began the round on if it failed, and was on its last DT even if it succeeded. This new version of Mercy/Convert has taken away all of these things, where we probably only needed to do one or two. I'm fine with making an opposed Dis check for my model from its last track... but that's where I want the Crusaders to get it. Let them burn their healing to bring it back up.

 

~v

[wrightjd]

Here is the changes I would make to the crusader special ability:

 

Make the conversion by the leader automatic with no check. You're already paying the penalty for using it as an invoke action and you're choosing to leave a model up.

 

However there should be a clarification to this rule which does not allow a model that is fearless or undead to be converted, cause let's be honest here, a fearless model should not be afraid to die.

 

I think this should help keep the SA in line in terms of power. As the ability stands now, I dont' believe I would ever even waste my time using it, I'd just go with the sure death of the model.

[Ravenwolf]

When I frist read the update to Mercy and the new Conversion FA I thought that Mercy did what it did before, but you got the Model on its last DT and it was automatic. I think this is how it should be to give the Crusader players some options on how they want to snag enemy Models.

 

1. Mercy should be automatic and convert the enemy model to the Crusader side on its last track.

2. Conversion should impose a -2 DIS penalty to allow a better chance for the Crusader Leader to succeed.

3. Healing Graces should impose a -2 DIS penalty if the Healer is a Leader Model.

4. Only 1 Model may be "converted" per activation no matter which method is used.

 

This way the Crusader player can choose to try and get a Model on its last DT by attacking it, scarificing a Leader's attacks to try and snag a Model that is not wounded or less wounded or heal a Model and try to convert it.

 

Keep in mind that the Crusaders have an FA that can't even be used on some entire armies (Necropolis, Razig, Undead Nefsokar) and now can't be used on Models with the Berserker SA as well as the Undead SA. It should be made more powerful than it is.

 

My $0.02.

[Castlebuilder]

My thoughts are this (brace yerselves, this is where ol' Kel says things horribly uncharacteristic, considering my former love of the Mercy ability): Scrap Mercy/Conversion entirely. I can't see it being any less a sore subject than it is now or has been ever.........

I throw my lot in with the Kelcore faction! (CB starts watching for objects being thrown at him..... )

 

Castlebuilder

[Brushmaster]

My thoughts are this (brace yerselves, this is where ol' Kel says things horribly uncharacteristic, considering my former love of the Mercy ability): Scrap Mercy/Conversion entirely. I can't see it being any less a sore subject than it is now or has been ever.........

I throw my lot in with the Kelcore faction! (CB starts watching for objects being thrown at him..... )

 

Castlebuilder

I could go along with that too if it was replaced by something cool that actually enhanced what the faction does . I was thinking of a new Faction Ability - "Divine Presence" ( we've already got Sokar is Near) , all clerics gain a +1 to casting for a purely Crusader faction .

What do you think?

Fluff wise - the faithful servants of Aurelus are bestowed with his presence for the duration of the battle , enhancing their clerical abilities . Ok , its better than other clerics but its not the +2 that everyone used to get for friendly targets and they don't suffer as much when facing Nekfsokar .

[shakhak]

My thoughts are this (brace yerselves, this is where ol' Kel says things horribly uncharacteristic, considering my former love of the Mercy ability): Scrap Mercy/Conversion entirely. I can't see it being any less a sore subject than it is now or has been ever.........

I throw my lot in with the Kelcore faction! (CB starts watching for objects being thrown at him..... )

 

Castlebuilder

I could go along with that too if it was replaced by something cool that actually enhanced what the faction does . I was thinking of a new Faction Ability - "Divine Presence" ( we've already got Sokar is Near) , all clerics gain a +1 to casting for a purely Crusader faction .

What do you think?

Fluff wise - the faithful servants of Aurelus are bestowed with his presence for the duration of the battle , enhancing their clerical abilities . Ok , its better than other clerics but its not the +2 that everyone used to get for friendly targets and they don't suffer as much when facing Nekfsokar .

 

I kind of like this... I say give all Crusader clerics the +2 to casting bonus. On top of the new Mercy/Conversion rules... That sounds like a faction ability worth playing.

[Brushmaster]

Nah , if they (Reaper) were to impliment it , leave it at only +1 . That way there won't be too many howls of dismay .

[cristomeyers]

I like that idea. Certainly seems more in line with the Crusaders than conversion.

 

Of course, then you end up with two holy-roller armies.

[Darthiir]

My thoughts are this (brace yerselves, this is where ol' Kel says things horribly uncharacteristic, considering my former love of the Mercy ability): Scrap Mercy/Conversion entirely. I can't see it being any less a sore subject than it is now or has been ever.........

I throw my lot in with the Kelcore faction! (CB starts watching for objects being thrown at him..... )

 

Castlebuilder

I could go along with that too if it was replaced by something cool that actually enhanced what the faction does . I was thinking of a new Faction Ability - "Divine Presence" ( we've already got Sokar is Near) , all clerics gain a +1 to casting for a purely Crusader faction .

What do you think?

Fluff wise - the faithful servants of Aurelus are bestowed with his presence for the duration of the battle , enhancing their clerical abilities . Ok , its better than other clerics but its not the +2 that everyone used to get for friendly targets and they don't suffer as much when facing Nekfsokar .

 

not to mention you'll still be at a -1 when playing nefsokar.

[Outkast Samurai]

There have been great points made here in lots of different areas. The biggest problem with the 1.2 Mercy was that the model tested at its last track and was gotten at where it started. That was the crux of the issue on that. Now that you get it on its last track its not nearly the same issue as it was before. Also without the Standard +1, Spear +1, and whatever else you did to soup up your Dis the opposed rolls aren't the same one sided affairs that they were either.

Divine Guidance with +2 (yes +2) to Cleric (not Mage) CP would be a good alternative to Mercy perhaps although it does drastically change the FA, and therefore the feel, of the entire faction.

 

Whether or not its the true strength of the list the fact that the Reven lost +2 CP to their Faction ability is wrong. I think that perhaps a +4 CP innate for Warcry only or even a +3 that isn't effected by Sokar wouldn't be out of the question.

[jdripley]

I'd like to add that part of the big issue back in 1.2 was not that Crusaders could almost auto-convert in the right circumstances, but they got to have their cake and eat it too and come back for 3rds, as the model trying to be converted made its Dis check from its worst track, came over at whatever DT it began the round on if it failed, and was on its last DT even if it succeeded. This new version of Mercy/Convert has taken away all of these things, where we probably only needed to do one or two. I'm fine with making an opposed Dis check for my model from its last track... but that's where I want the Crusaders to get it. Let them burn their healing to bring it back up.

 

~v

 

 

Yes!

Yes yes yes.

Shak's paragraph ought to get some attention, I think he's right on.

 

1.2 rules, getting a model on its last track meant next to nothing. It couldn't do squat.

beta rules, getting a model on its last track means you've got a fragile but still potent model on your side.

 

Keep Mercy as it is with the beta changes - I like that idea. Keep Conversion but make it an opposed Dis check and let any Crusader model do it. Many of the Crusader grunts and adepts don't have such fancy Dis values that it's rediculous. Leaders get (for the most part) a bonus to the roll simply because they're higher Dis models.

 

-------------------------------------------------------

Seperate train of thought:

 

Marksman. I'm still unsatisfied with how this works. First off the name is way off from what it does (not that this is a critical issue really). A Marksman ought to aim well, right? But in fact what we have is a Marksman aiming poorly. Perhaps Scattershot or Multishot would be better names for this SA.

 

But: Reducing RAV really can hurt a model. He can hit once (maybe, 20-50% chance by and large), or he can reduce his RAV and try for multiple hits. So now he has one or two extra shots with a 10-30ish % chance to hit. I'll take the one shot in most circumstances. Marksman only truly helps when a model's RAV is so low compared to the target's DV that he has to roll 10's anyways. Then, hey, why not just Marksman it out and get another try to hit the lucky 10? The specific problem, I think, is the elves' archers. These guys are supposed to be the premier archers in the game, and pretty much they're not. Critical Shot crossbowmen are always the better choice.

 

Here's my proposed fix - and I know that others I've talked to have suggested this too - Allow Marksman models to increase their #RA at no RAV penalty. They're still sacrificing their movement, so it's not like free #RA.

Here's another proposed fix: Increase the archer's RAV to something crazy, keep Marksman how it works, and make elven archers Unique Grunts, and give the elves a faction ability that makes them non-unique. You give elves a much needed power boost (since in melee they get rolled easily), you don't break freelance, and you don't have to change the SA (since other models don't need to be the best, so who cares if their SA isn't super uber).

[stormseeker75]

These suggestions are all really good. I especially like what jdripley and Shak had to say. I agree that Mercy/Conversion seems to bulky. But what are the odds of these changes being implemented? This rules release is beta I believe, so I guess theres a good opportunity for these things to be fixed.

[jdripley]

But what are the odds of these changes being implemented? This rules release is beta I believe, so I guess theres a good opportunity for these things to be fixed.

Reaper is super good about listening to customer feedback. Miraculously they're also pretty good at sifting through our passionate rantings and picking out the jewels of insight that we come up with here and there!

Reaper really does want to make a good game, and as we can all see from the changes to the Crusader FA's, they are highly interested in fixing it. If they come up with the best fix, they'll use their idea. But if somebody in the community does, they'll use that idea. They don't get all wierd about it, and it makes it a pleasure to be in the community and interact with them like we all can.

 

Heck, what other company has threads like this that aren't just stinking piles of rants that the company ignores? Check out the WoW forums next time you want a counter example to how Reaper operates and what the affect on the community can be.