Beta Thoughts

[Shogun_Warrior]

so I guess theres a good opportunity for these things to be fixed.

Keep in mind that in a few months we'll have the first K-book. From EE in the Q&A thread:

 

We're planning to rework Faction Abilities in the the first KJ.

 

So I would say play it the way it is in Beta, and provide Reaper with your playtesting feedback, and I'm sure they'll be taking a closer look at Mercy for that K-book.

[rcrosby]

I am most concerned about the cost of healing. I don't think I would ever bother taking any healing capability with the new cards/rules. Now that 1 old damage point is equal to about 2-3 new damage points, the ability to heal 1 point of damage is mostly irrelevant.

 

Healer SA: One point of damage per activation is nearly useless. This needs to be more: 1-2 points for the Invoke action + 1 point for forfeiting the non-combat action as well, or vice versa.

 

Healing Spells: The cost of these spells is now often more than the cost of the models they could heal. Ex. 4-track Dwarven Warrior 39 pts vs 40 points of Cure. I would just take another grunt for the cost of the spells and come out ahead (even more if I use the points for the Cleric itself to get more grunts.) Even for the big guys, healing magic isn't so great now that they have so many more damage tracks and the healing magic is less of a sure thing.

 

Life Drain: This is now a second tier spell no longer worth considering for the big guys like Moandain, Askrypt, and the Witch Queen. Fiddling with 1 point of damage/healing is not worth their time. There needs to be a Greater Life Drain that does 2+ points of damage/healing.

 

Rich

[wildbill]

Healing Spells: The cost of these spells is now often more than the cost of the models they could heal. Ex. 4-track Dwarven Warrior 39 pts vs 40 points of Cure. I would just take another grunt for the cost of the spells and come out ahead (even more if I use the points for the Cleric itself to get more grunts.) Even for the big guys, healing magic isn't so great now that they have so many more damage tracks and the healing magic is less of a sure thing.

 

Granted, I was playing this game before they took away the +2 bonus for non-attack spells. However, with that said...

 

I was playing Razig vs Reptus. He had the Hydra on the table. All he was fielding was Cure2 spells with his Cleric (and a Teleport). I did a total of 11 wounds to the Hydra (over time of course), and he used two spells to keep it alive. Meanwhile, the Hydra killed Razig 3 times, Black Knife Tom, 3 Chain Gang, and 2 Bone Marines. Nice, huh? So, yeah, those spells can be devastating if played right. If your army is revolving around a couple three big guys to do most of your dirty work, then plopping a cleric down with several Cure2 or Cure3 spells is probably a must to keep them in tip-top shape!

 

That's what I would do, anyways.

 

Wild Bill

[Stubbdog]

I'll say it this way, it definitely errs on the side of destruction rather than healing.

 

I dont have a problem with 99% of it, as mages may have higher CPs but as long as they are trying to use those against the stronger targets on the other side they have to go up against higher MDs on average. Clerics only have to go against 10s. So, from that point of view it evens out that part of it. Cleric spells are a little more expensive to heal than it is for mages to impose, but not significant enough, and besides the game needs to keep moving along so not a big problem there. But the one thing that is tugging at me, is that Mages can counter cleric spells but clerics cannot counter mage spells.

 

Counter spell currently can be used to stop healing spells, attack spells, hold spells, or any other spell cast at models within 6 inches of the mage. And do it at the time of the casting to keep it from happening.

 

Dispel on the other hand only works against spells that are typically spells cast by other clerics (hold, etc...). Not having any ability to keep damage from happening. And as far as I am reading cannot be cast at the time so much as after the fact unless the cleric is actually a part of the target. They do not get to try and keep spells from happening around them.

 

But, having said all of that, WB is completely correct in his assessment. Everything leans toward the mages, but a well timed cure spell still can tip the tide of battle.

[rcrosby]

I was playing Razig vs Reptus. He had the Hydra on the table.

That is the exception that proves the rule. The Hydra costs 39 points per damage track. There aren't many models like that.

 

Rich

[Qwyksilver]

I'd love to see Counterspell available as a Level 3 Cleric spell. So it's not available to everyone, but some Clerics can access it. Same costs, same function, just a higher level.

 

Additionally, I would prefer to see Counterspell function as an opposed CP check instead of a beat a 10 roll. This favors the more powerful Caster, but still gives the weaker Caster some chance of successfully casting the spell. I am paying for my Caster's higher CP and higher Magical ability. I should be allowed to use it. It's a bit frustrating to know my Level 3, CP 8 Caster can get totally nerfed by some patsy Level 2, CP 4 mage 50% of the time.

 

And, so that Clerics are not completely killed by this, change the wording of Counterspell, so it only effects Attack spells, which seems to make more sense. Otherwise, Healing and support spells will be rendered fairly useless, which is the lifeblood of the Cleric. Since Mage spells are more Offensive in nature, it seems to make sense that they would be trained to protect themselves from other Offensive Spells, not necessarily from healing and other Non-Attack Spells. As JD pointed out below, the wording of Counterspell could suggest this is already the case, but if it is meant to be effective against Attack Spells only, it should really be written more clearly.

 

 

 

 

An alternative, since Clerics seem to be more of the healing, removing spell effect, protective types. Why not give Clerics a Level 2 Defensive Magic spell that provides a boost to MD in a given radius.

 

Shield of Faith

Casting Grade: Cleric 2

Availability: Any

Type: Non-Attack

Point Cost: 10

Range: Caster

Area of Effect: 3

# Models Affected: All Friendly

Damage: None

LOS: No

Cast Defensively: Yes

 

Notes: This spell is cast to grant Friendly Models divine protection from Enemy Attack Spells that have been cast against you or at a target within 3 inches of you. If cast successfully, all Friendly Models within the AOE receive a +4 bonus to MD until the end of the current Activation.

[jdripley]

Counter spell currently can be used to stop healing spells, attack spells, hold spells, or any other spell cast at models within 6 inches of the mage.

 

The text here is a little bit ambiguous.

"This spell is cast in an attempt to disrupt an enemy's spell that has been cast against you or at a target within 6" of you. If Counter Spell is cast successfully, the attacking casting Model receives a -6 to its Casting Roll(s)."

 

Sentence one leads me to think that it can be used to fizzle a Cure. Sentence two, specifically the words "attacking casting model" leads me to think that non-attack spells do not trigger Counterspell.

 

I'm not sure what their intent is, but since the first sentence leaves it open and the second sentence closes the door, if it was my call I'd say Cure can not be Counterspelled. Perhaps if they want to make Cures counterspellable change "attacking casting model" to "enemy casting model" and in that way distinguish between the guy casting cure or mage spell X or whatever and the defensive mage lighting off Counterspell.

 

-----------------------------

 

I agree with Rcrosby that healing is a dicey venture nowadays. There are only a select few models in the entire game with a 100 % or 90% chance to successfuly cast a spell. Some of the "better" clerics have a 70 or 60 % chance, and plenty of them have a 50% chance. Combine that with the cost of the spells, the cost of the cleric, and the fact that you're losing your attack that round, and you're behind the 8 ball when you use healing. Healer only doing 1 really bugs me because as a Dwarf player, 2 out of my 3 healers are insanely good in melee, so its a big hit to be invoking for one measly damage removed instead of putting the pain on the enemy with 3 powerful attacks.

 

All that said, I've used healing to great effect in playtesting. So it's not worthless, it's just really chancy.

Healer has made the difference between my model dying this round or next round, sometimes it bumps the injured model's DV up one, or gives it just enough tracks that it can withstand another round of combat and continue to add its attacks and support into the fight. It can't bring a stunned grunt or adept back from the brink of death to full fighting ability like it used to, but it's not a trash ability. Also, re: the dwarf healers, since they don't get +2CP anymore I really wont' be using Ivar, and using Herryk and Logrim in healer modes for the first half of the game helps ensure that I have a heavy hitter to bring against my opponent late in the game, which can be a decisive advantage. So it's not all bad.

 

I still would like to see clerics get back the +2 CP for non-attack spells. With clerics we're right back where we began - some clerics just will not be used because of poor CP's and a low chance of casting an expensive spell at a key moment. I feel this is one area that needs some attention.

 

You can keep some of the crazy good cleric's CP's high (Neb gets 9) because he has plenty of attack spell options (FFB, Sandstorm) and having the high CP helps him fulfill his role of going offensive with his spells. Hold is a generic spell that is attack, and some clerics just ought to be able to cast hold to great effect. But people just won't take the bottom tier clerics because a 50% chance to lose a 30 point spell and fail to heal at a critical moment is too much of a liability.

[shakhak]

I was playing Razig vs Reptus. He had the Hydra on the table.

That is the exception that proves the rule. The Hydra costs 39 points per damage track. There aren't many models like that.

 

Rich

You can't really break a model down per damage track because their 0-1-2 damage tracks are going to be worth FAR more than their 3-4-5-6-7 damage tracks.

 

My feelings are that if the model is worth more than the healing spell then it's worth casting on him. Especially if it gets them back to that Golden 0 damage track.

 

I agree that healing isn't worth much on the weaker models, but if you're tropping down the field of battle and an adept takes an arrow, there is no penalty in using your Healer to patch him up.

I've also fought against the hill giant backed up by the goblin cleric and that 1 point healed per round was a pain in the neck.

[Sergei]

Anyone saying that healer isn't a useful SA now hasn't faced a line of Lions Lancers backed up by a few Hospitlers. Trust me, if used correctly it's still a VERY valuable SA.

 

That being said, Clerics with thier low CP's are a bit more iffy. I think they should have access to the Greater Familiar to pump them up if you want to hing your army on healing.

[aircrew0]

ok so i haven't been around to much but i was just reading over all this a thought on the Crusaders doesn't Disable also lower DIS when used??? don't the Crusaders have a unit with that SA so maybe try a list with the dogs in it

[Sergei]

Just two things that I would like to see-

 

Garr being able to lead a dog pack again

 

The flying Reptus taking on the name "dragon born"

[shakhak]

Just two things that I would like to see-

 

Garr being able to lead a dog pack again

 

The flying Reptus taking on the name "dragon born"

I was thinking something more along the lines of, "Choosen of Payanak" and then pump their stats until they cost 100 points.... I can dream...

[Qwyksilver]

Just two things that I would like to see-

 

Garr being able to lead a dog pack again

 

The flying Reptus taking on the name "dragon born"

I was thinking something more along the lines of, "Choosen of Payanak" and then pump their stats until they cost 100 points.... I can dream...

 

I would prefer calling them Skeet, and making them one track, DV 5, #MA 1, MAV 1, Mov 1, Flyer Mov 4. I want something my Ivy Crown Archers could actually hit.

[Stubbdog]

Just two things that I would like to see-

 

Garr being able to lead a dog pack again

 

The flying Reptus taking on the name "dragon born"

I was thinking something more along the lines of, "Choosen of Payanak" and then pump their stats until they cost 100 points.... I can dream...

 

I like the idea of some ultra tough flying adepts. But, i like the cuurent flyers. I would say campaign for your 100 point flyers for those empty card slots that the reptus still have coming in future updates.

 

ok so i haven't been around to much but i was just reading over all this a thought on the Crusaders doesn't Disable also lower DIS when used??? don't the Crusaders have a unit with that SA so maybe try a list with the dogs in it

 

Not sure which this item is in response to. If it is related to the discussion on spells, then DIS has no affect on spells. If you are talking about lots of dogs being affective in combat, well I think that in packs they would be, as singles, not so much. But that is me. I know there will be examples that prove me wrong.

[Stubbdog]

Took this out of the Dwarf thread as I wanted to comment but it shouldnt go on mucking up the dwarf thread...

 

I think the Crusaders will do fine against undead. Necropolis undead, at least. Smite(Evil)/3,000,000 or whatever appears frequently on their cards :P

 

Crusaders lost a lot of Smite Evil. Only Gerry, Sir Damon, Sir Danel and Finari have it now.

 

I love smite.

 

Personally, I was disapointed that they took away smite as much as they did. And not just cause I had built a cool crusader army build with it.

 

Personally, I loved the smite being on several of the models, not just a couple. I would actually say quite the opposite needs to happen. I think they should spread it around and more models get it. I think that smite has a bunch of uses that would be fun and add flavor to the game. With its open endedness of being smite ( * ), it just has soo many fun possibilities to further the flavor of each faction.

 

Just tossing some possible ideas out:

 

crusaders with their smite evil

dwarves smite monsters

reptus smite undead (they are suppose to be dragon people after all)

overlords smite good

nefsokar smite leaders (fits the felling theme)

etc...

 

Now would every single faction have to have a smite something in there...? No, but it does add some more fun and faction specific flavor in there to have more than the handful that have it now.

I just thought smite is too cool an idea to not kinda mix in more, not less.

 

Or another idea is subfaction SAs, if you take a certain subfaction list then you get smite ( x ) added to all leader, soldiers, or solos or something like that...

 

Again, smite is just too cool to have less of it, instead should just be more creative and used more I think (hope)