Beta Thoughts

[Froggy the Great]

(agreed on the Reven bit)

 

And this is a beta. If you find things you think are broken or skewed, e-mail Emmel Eich /with specific examples/.

[Outkast Samurai]

[ But, whereas in the 1.2 rules he was only worth 284 points. Equal to 18 goblin warriors, the cheapest model in the game. And it really only took about 10 of those to beat him due to the way support worked and how few damage tracks he had. Now in 2007beta Rauthoros is more powerful but is also more expensive. He is now 325 points, equal to 27 goblins. And it will probably take all 27 of those goblins to eventually wear Rauthuros down.

 

Nope. 27 or 57, goblins cannot take down Rauthoros without just pure luck. He aoutmaticlly kill 6 goblins on attacks or defensive strikes (frenzy).

[Shakandara]

and that is ok cause the guy you just took was Rauthuros and as you say the other player is wasting all his attacks on the dogs which you point out are not to be worried about, really though i was just throwing out an idea showing it can still work Warlord seems to have gone beyond dead at my store with the new changes because we found to many broken areas so i have not gotten to play at all to get a feeling on the Mercy rules

Ok, now I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say...

 

Do you mean by "the guy you just took was Rauthuros" that the Crusaders were able to Mercy and then Convert Rauthuros because of some War Dogs? I'd like to see the battle situation where that could occur...

 

~v

[shakhak]

[ But, whereas in the 1.2 rules he was only worth 284 points. Equal to 18 goblin warriors, the cheapest model in the game. And it really only took about 10 of those to beat him due to the way support worked and how few damage tracks he had. Now in 2007beta Rauthoros is more powerful but is also more expensive. He is now 325 points, equal to 27 goblins. And it will probably take all 27 of those goblins to eventually wear Rauthuros down.

 

Nope. 27 or 57, goblins cannot take down Rauthoros without just pure luck. He aoutmaticlly kill 6 goblins on attacks or defensive strikes (frenzy).

 

You're right that you need a little luck. But with close to 40 or 50 goblin attacks by the end of 4 rounds(about how long I think it would take for Rauthy to kill ALL of the goblins) I'm sure the goblins will find what they need to seriously wound or outright kill Rauthy. This is without considering that after they hit him 4 times, they don't need natural tens anymore.

This is considering if you throw them at him relentlessly...

You could also slowly move them in spending about 20-40 points a round to hold up Rauth for the entire game...

 

So horde armies need some luck, but I'd say this is pretty darn close when comparing the highest to the lowest.

 

It should probably also be noted that the 2 models have totally different types of roles. Rauthurous being a flying caster. The Goblin Warriors also have a vital support role, with all of your other models gaining +2 MAV to just about every combat on your initiative

 

 

 

 

So who wants to compare how close this to how close goblins vs Rauth turns out in the old rules?

[Stubbdog]

It's quite a good feeling when you see you suggestions used. Especally my problem with Greater Magic armor and Disable

 

Missed this one earlier. Just curious what your problem with the armor was/is?

 

Nope. 27 or 57, goblins cannot take down Rauthoros without just pure luck. He aoutmaticlly kill 6 goblins on attacks or defensive strikes (frenzy).

 

I didnt say it wouldnt take good rolling. And I wont disagree with you that it would be very difficult for the goblins to do it. But, remember we are talking about the most extreme example here. Change out Rauthuros to someone just a wrung below him (someone with a DV 14 instead of 18) or change a few goblins for a few somethings else, even just a few orc reachers, and it changes things significantly. but even with this example it is possible anyway, lets look at this.

 

Rauthuros has DV 18 on his first track and a GIANT base size. I would say that I think that you could get probably 10 goblins into b2b with him at a time, possibly more but lets say 10. Fearsome doesnt matter cause as you pointed out Rauthuros is going to hit most likely on hs defensive swings. The difference fearsome makes is the difference of whether he will choose to use Frenzy or not. Dont use it and be sure to hit, use it and have to roll to hit. He doesnt have 360 so I would hope to get at least a few of those 10 into his back to limit the number of models he could swing back against.

 

 

So lets say rauthoros wins init and flies over and is only able to get 2 gobbies in b2b since they are kinda spread out and kills them, they do nothing in return. On the gobbies activation they get 10 in there. So, you would be looking at 10 rolls at 6, so means you need 10s. 10 rolls, lets guess that you hit with 2. He will take out lets say 7 of the ten.

 

Next turn, lets say that the gobbies win init and 7 more replace those and so you have 10 again. His DV is now a 17, so unfortuantely they still need 10s. Lets say they again get 2. He takes out 6 on defense and then probably takes out the other 4 on his offensive turn.

 

Next turn, gobbies win the init again and pile on the remaining last 8 gobbies. Now R's DV is 15. So no you have 8 rolls at 9 or better. Lets say you get another 2 possibly 3. R takes out 6 and then the other 2 on offense.

 

With a little luck they might have hit more than 2 per turn, but even as it is, they would probably on average take him down to his last track or so.

 

Again this is the most extreme possible scenario. Swap out the goblin warriors with goblin rangers (only one more point each) and now we are talking about 25 rangers instead of 27 warriros. Rangers would still need 10s, but they have 2 attacks each. Meaning that in my rolls, they would have 20 rolls to get those 10s each turn, and I would bet you could get 2-4 each turn with that. Sticking with the goblin list, swap a few gobby warriors for a single beastrider. Make sure that beastrider is part of the last group of attackers rather than the first group and it could be swinging at lower numbers. Obviously the beastrider will be the priority target on defensive swings, but for that one turn it would get 3 attacks with elevated MAVs.

 

Long and short of it is, that all models have a chance against all other models. Some better chances than others, but heck that is part of the game.

[wildbill]

Also don't forget that most likely any Rauthuros player worth his salt would just fly into the air after the initial swarm and go to safer surroundings. Like, somewhere where they can only bring 2-4 goblins at a time...

 

Wild Bill

[cristomeyers]

Or just use a fireball on the tightly packed goblins...

[Qwyksilver]

And if the player leaves Rauthuros out in the open, with no protection, and able to be surrounded, he gets whatever he deserves.

 

On his last track, Rauthuros has a Dis of 7. I'm willing to take that chance every time of making my Discipline check and going airborne.

 

The initial version of Disable, based on Melee Attacks, instead of Melee Attack Action, was huge.

 

I was messing around with Crusaders being able to Convert Rauth in a one shot deal. It's feasible, with Gerard fielding 4 War Dogs, 3 Lion Lancers, Finari and Sir Damon, but you're going to be sacrificing most of those dogs, and as soon as they die, the penalty from Disable is removed (since b2b is broken and they lack Tough), so you're still likely looking at a Discipline check for Conversion of no less than maybe Dis 5-ish, which still favors the big guy.

 

4 War Dogs: 8 attacks at MAV 6

3 Lion Lancers: 9 attacks at MAV 10

Finari: 3 attacks at MAV 11

Sir Damon: 4 attacks at MAV 12

 

Chances are, you're going to get enough hits to drop him, but then with defensive strikes, he could potentially take out 2, maybe 3 dogs with some halfway decent rolls and Frenzy.

 

With old Disable, Rauthuros, even w/ a maxmimum Frenzy, wouldn't likely be able to kill a single dog, since he'd lose 8 Defensive Strikes, and the maximum he could have via frenzy would be 13 attacks at MAV 1 (minus 8 for Distract = 5 Defensive Strikes at MAV 1). I'd take those odds. Newer version of Disable, gives Rauth some chance of killing 2, maybe 3 dogs with a Frenzy.

 

Of course, you;re bringing about 860 points to take down the 350 point Rauthuros. All for the conversion attempt

 

But it would be fun to do just to watch your opponent cry

[Sergei]

Missed this one earlier. Just curious what your problem with the armor was/is?

 

My problem was the armor was too cheap and anyone could take it. We were seeing entire troops upgraded with GMA. The reason was simple, if your grunt is 150 to 175 points it's VERY cost effective to throw 30 points of armor on him. I was facing Tomb guards with a DV of 17 vs ranged attacks. When they lowered the cost of the troops and limited gma to leaders and elites I felt that the problem was solved.

 

The problem Aircrew was talking about was that we were finding that there were two classes of troops on the board, your super elites and space filler grunts(such as goblins and lesser orcs). It seemed that you could throw an infinate number of space fillers at a super elite and nothing would happen except the space fillers would die in droves. I'm still wait to play the new version so I haven't seen if this has been solved. But it looks like , at least with the goblins, it has not.

[Stubbdog]

I was messing around with Crusaders being able to Convert Rauth in a one shot deal.

 

4 War Dogs: 8 attacks at MAV 6

3 Lion Lancers: 9 attacks at MAV 10

Finari: 3 attacks at MAV 11

Sir Damon: 4 attacks at MAV 12

 

Chances are, you're going to get enough hits to drop him, but then with defensive strikes, he could potentially take out 2, maybe 3 dogs with some halfway decent rolls and Frenzy.

 

Of course, you;re bringing about 860 points to take down the 350 point Rauthuros. All for the conversion attempt

 

Actually the 4 dogs would lower R's defensive swings to just 1, 2 with frenzy, so the max dogs that R could take out on the first turn is only 1.

 

But, as you pointed out that is 860 points to gain 325 on his last track.

[aircrew0]

and that is ok cause the guy you just took was Rauthuros and as you say the other player is wasting all his attacks on the dogs which you point out are not to be worried about, really though i was just throwing out an idea showing it can still work Warlord seems to have gone beyond dead at my store with the new changes because we found to many broken areas so i have not gotten to play at all to get a feeling on the Mercy rules

Ok, now I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say...

 

Do you mean by "the guy you just took was Rauthuros" that the Crusaders were able to Mercy and then Convert Rauthuros because of some War Dogs? I'd like to see the battle situation where that could occur...

 

~v

 

haha no i play darkspawn but under the previous beta i had 3 Lion's Lancers and Sir Damon Mercy my Rauth now like i said i have not seen the new rules played but i could see it happen very easy since it is possible to take him down in one turn where dogs could cause a very easy conversion of big guys you just have to play them right

[Qwyksilver]

Actually the 4 dogs would lower R's defensive swings to just 1, 2 with frenzy, so the max dogs that R could take out on the first turn is only 1.

 

But, as you pointed out that is 860 points to gain 325 on his last track.

 

The amount for Frenzy is twice the regular amount, so Rauthuros would be allowed a maximum of 10 attacks doing a maximum Frenzy. Disable would then reduce that number by 1 for each Disabling attack made as I read it. Although your take is also interesting (and makes Disable significantly more devastating), and probably worth more clarification.

 

Just added it to the Inquiring Minds thread.

[Stubbdog]

I was doing a little brainstorming the other night after some discussion with another board member related to a little bit of confusion as to what can and cannot be done in an activation. What is considered a non combat action and what is considered to be a combat action. For example, could a model with cleric participate in melee combat as its combat action and then cast a non-combat friendly cure spell for its non combat action.

 

Anyway, got me thinking.

 

What do you think about trying to change it to be similar to the CAV repeatable / non repeateable actions?

 

It would allow for things like maybe healer SA to be a repeateable action since they only heal 1 point. melee would be non repeatable. etc...

 

Just a brainstorm thought.

 

The amount for Frenzy is twice the regular amount, so Rauthuros would be allowed a maximum of 10 attacks doing a maximum Frenzy

Obviously need to wait for Reaper clarification, but my take on it is that the dogs are attacking and therefore disabling first before Rauthorus decides to make a defensive attack or not, which means the disable SA comes into play before frenzy is enabled, which means that the MAs are reduced and then the model can decide from there. But that is just my take on it.

 

On the other hand, when it is Rauthoros turn, and the dogs are still in B2B and therefore DISABLE is still in affect, I would think that he has his 10-4=6. Again, it depends on if the order of things change or not based on whose turn it is.

[Glen]

The problem Aircrew was talking about was that we were finding that there were two classes of troops on the board, your super elites and space filler grunts(such as goblins and lesser orcs). It seemed that you could throw an infinate number of space fillers at a super elite and nothing would happen except the space fillers would die in droves. I'm still wait to play the new version so I haven't seen if this has been solved. But it looks like , at least with the goblins, it has not.

I had that feeling for a bit also, that the closed beta had tipped the scales of Warlord to heavily favor the big solos. I am pleased that Reach now stacks with Support. I posted in the Craclaw tactics thread about a battle I had last night. 10 Onyx Phalanx (51 points each), cheap Capt, cheap Sgt and 2 Onyx Golems (and Arik Gix, but he did absolutely nothing the entire battle, kept missing his CP v MD rolls) against Rauthuros, Grave Horror, 3 Gargoyles, and a cleric w/ Cure spells. The phalanx were split into 2 troops and took out the Grave Horror without much of a problem. Rauthuros was much tougher. The battle ended with only 4 of the Phalanx left standing, so the grunts (though I will conceed they are elite grunts) did pretty well, and even had to chase down Rauthuros once.

 

The stacking of Reach and Support really brought Warlord back into balance, at least regarding big solos vs. grunt troops.

[Qwyksilver]

@ Stubb, which is probably where we are differing in our mindset. Although you are declaring your attacks, and Disable first, Close Combat is supposed to occur simultaneously.