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Dungeon & Dragon Magazines gone by August


haldir
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I know I am comming off as the bad guy here, but for the past 4-5 years the two mags have been a joke. Every issue seemed to be full of adds with very little meat. Combine that with an insane cost and poor materials I say good riddence.

 

 

I've not been a regular purchaser in a long time either. I haven't picked up more than a couple Dragons in the last 10 years. I've purchased a few Dungeons but not nearly as many of those as I use to. In fact I'm not really sure D&D or D20 deserves to live. Ever since 3.0 it's been chokeing off some of the other great game systems. I find myself trying to get away from it more an more.

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I was a regular Dragon subscriber for about 5 years - up until about 3-4 months ago. Shortly after I renewed the last time, they made some changes to the magazine that, IMO, cut some otherwise useful content. I really hemmed and hawwed about renewing this last time around, and eventually decided that it was just too expensive for the usefulness I was getting out of it.

 

Overall, Dragon had some pretty high production values - too high, if you ask me. I think that they spent too much time and money making the magazine flashy, which upped the cost. They really didn't need to be doing an all color magazine. I, for one, would have been just fine with 80% of the pages in black & white.

 

I am sorry to see Dragon end, though, but that's because it was an icon, and I grieve the end of it's run much the same way that I grieved Chevy ceasing production of the Camaro, or I would if Ford ceased production of the Mustang.

 

Oh, and I think they're just being jerks by ending on an odd issue number like #359. Can't they stretch it out one more issue to #360, which frankly has a better ring to it as the final issue? sheesh!

 

I wish them luck with their online version, but I won't be subscribing to hit. I just can't get into the concept of an online "Magazine" - I don't even find myself subscribing to free ones.

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Oh, and I think they're just being jerks by ending on an odd issue number like #359. Can't they stretch it out one more issue to #360, which frankly has a better ring to it as the final issue? sheesh!

 

Going to 360 would easily be a basic marketing.

 

Dragon has now gone full circle, and after 360 issues, we are going to end.

 

Although I see it more as the Ouroboros (sp?) Serpent reaching around and finally consuming itself :poke:

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Whether D&D 3.0 deserves to live or not is a silly comment. YES it deserves to live, as long as it is profitable and maintains a fan base. I personally am a fan of D&D 3.x, MUCH MUCH more than either OD&D, 1e or 2e. Indeed, I like D&D better than a lot of those botique games that are sometimes lauded as being superior or more modern (modern to whom?). This is not to say I don't like other game sets, but I think the advent of 3.0 reinvigorated the industry in a way that Vampire or GURPS could not.

 

Damon.

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Well, there's really not much that can't be undone except for death, so if it's a bad business decision, it'll get turned around. If not by WOTC/Paizo, by someone who sees the opportunity and has the capital and/or initiative to turn it around.

 

Seeing as how I like painting figgies for Reaper and alot of 'em are made in support of fantasy RPG's I personally hope that any and all Fantasy RPG's continue to survive & thrive.

 

::):

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I too used to read Dragon voraciously 'in the old days'. I think I stopped subscribing somewhere around issue 200. Then a couple years ago when I got back into the gaming thing, I gave D&D 3.0/3.5 a try as well as renewing my sub to Dragon. Boy, was I disappointed on both fronts. IMHO, WotC ruined the franchise, and Dragon's usefulness and quality went right along with it, at least for my purposes.

 

It's definitely sad to see the end of an era, the death of an icon (the PAPER magazine), but I had already turned away from (again, IMHO) the travesty it had become, so it doesn't hurt me directly too much. At least in the short-term.

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So, TSR ran D&D for 20+ years. Somehow they went into the red and WOTC came in for the rescue. But did D&D suffer because WOTC didn't bring the TSR folks over? Or are they just being too "corporate" thus executives not gamers are making the creative decisions? Everyone hated the 3.0 and 3.5 rules. Where did they go wrong?

 

What if Dragon and Dungeon were combined into one magazine thus able to combine their content? Thus giving fans something vs. nothing?

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Its not an issue of expense, or whether Dragon and Dungeon can be consolidated. Its an issue of WotC not renewing the license with Paizo. No doubt the biggest expense in magazine retail is the printing costs. WotC no doubt thinks it can make more money via on-line subscriptions then what they were getting in licensing fees.

 

Frankly, I find the argument "WotC ruined D&D" to be an empty one. There are plenty of people that will stand up and say TSR ruined D&D with 2e, and a small number of people will screed that 1e ruined D&D. No, 3x SAVED D&D from total obscurity as a footnote in the annals of gaming. Yeah, may not be YOUR game, but I like it all the same, and I don't allow my judgement to be clouded by nostalgia; Giving up on to-hit matrices, or THAC0 is a VAST improvement in my book any day. And yeah, I have great memories of playing both 1e and 2e, but measure that with reason that there was a lot in those games that were clunky and didn't work that elegantly...

 

Damon.

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Frankly, I find the argument "WotC ruined D&D" to be an empty one. There are plenty of people that will stand up and say TSR ruined D&D with 2e, and a small number of people will screed that 1e ruined D&D. No, 3x SAVED D&D from total obscurity as a footnote in the annals of gaming. Yeah, may not be YOUR game, but I like it all the same, and I don't allow my judgement to be clouded by nostalgia; Giving up on to-hit matrices, or THAC0 is a VAST improvement in my book any day. And yeah, I have great memories of playing both 1e and 2e, but measure that with reason that there was a lot in those games that were clunky and didn't work that elegantly...

 

I have to second this.

 

I generally find 3.5 to be an elegant, portable system that not only renewed my interest in D&D, but other excellent settings like Iron Kingdoms from Privateer Press that utilize the OGL foundation.

 

Recent WoTC D&D core and supplement releases are hit and miss, but hit more often than not (that said, I wish they'd trim the fat in their art department, i.e. cut out the mediocre "meet the deadline" filler and retain the good stuff).

 

Not happy about the cancellation of Dragon and Dungeon, but not shocked either. Frankly, I'm a little amazed they held out as long as they did.

 

-Naktab

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I'm not pleased with the magazines' cancellations. I just let my sub to Dragon lapse, largely because it was too expensive, but I still planned to buy single issues when I was interested by a particular Ecology article or whatnot.

 

As for WotC and D&D...I've played 2e, 3.0, and 3.5. I've looked at 1e rules and wasn't particularly interested. I do think the 2e rules let a lot of things happen that players don't get to think about anymore...character "buffing" seemed more reliant on a player's ability to play well, rather than on a mathematical equation of Feat + Skill + Equipment = Powerhouse. So, yeah, 2e was in some ways better. But 3.x unclunked the save system, pared down the complexity of basic combat while creating rules for previously game-bogging manuevers, and generally made the game easier to learn. So, what WotC did, in effect, was usher in several new generations of players to the game. There's enough common ground for the veterans and the newbies to play together.

 

And the magazines helped keep them together, in a lot of ways. To get really esoteric, the 1e/2e generation includes people who like to read newspapers on a fairly regular basis. The current crop of newbies doesn't like to read at all. But they sure wrote in to Dragon all the time, didn't they? So the mags were a lot like this forum, but with time lapse.

 

I think I'll let WotC's offer of "online content" pass, for my part.

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Frankly, I find the argument "WotC ruined D&D" to be an empty one. There are plenty of people that will stand up and say TSR ruined D&D with 2e, and a small number of people will screed that 1e ruined D&D. No, 3x SAVED D&D from total obscurity as a footnote in the annals of gaming. Yeah, may not be YOUR game, but I like it all the same, and I don't allow my judgement to be clouded by nostalgia; Giving up on to-hit matrices, or THAC0 is a VAST improvement in my book any day. And yeah, I have great memories of playing both 1e and 2e, but measure that with reason that there was a lot in those games that were clunky and didn't work that elegantly...

 

Damon.

 

Really? Did you miss the part where I said 'in my opinion'? Yeah, there are plenty of people that will claim 2nd Ed. killed D&D. Others will say 3.0 did, or 3.5. Yet others such as yourself will claim that 1st Ed. sucked and 3.x (and thus WotC) saved D&D. Whatever. It's ALL opinion. My argument may be empty to you, but it isn't to me. The game that WotC calls D&D just doesn't feel the same to me. Yes, some of the mechanics of the d20 system are better, no doubt. It's all the fluff and art and power-gaming crap that Wizards puts out that I don't like. So it may not be MY game, but because YOU like it, I guess my judgement is just clouded and you are so obviously right. You know, 'cause my opinion (NOT argument) is empty. Glad mine is just an opinion and your word is obvious fact.

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