Vampirism

[GreyHorde]

I'm likin' this...

[mjstarks]

My friend and I just started playing Warlord and unfortunately do not have the Necropolis book. Could someone give me a rundown of the Vamp rule? We have another friend starting who is going to be using Necropolis.

 

Thanks!

Mike

[jdripley]

a Vampire (maybe somebody else can give a list of who the vampires are) may loot a corpse to heal one damage track. Any corpse is a valid target, as are stunned models (in which case the loot action also coup de graces the stunned model). Corpses/stunned models with the Undead SA are not valid targets for vampirism.

 

vampires that I can think of off the top of my head: Crimson Knights, Judas Bloodspire, Vandrian, Bloodseeker, Elsabeth. There are others I believe, but those are the ones I face regularly :)

[mjstarks]

a Vampire (maybe somebody else can give a list of who the vampires are) may loot a corpse to heal one damage track. Any corpse is a valid target, as are stunned models (in which case the loot action also coup de graces the stunned model). Corpses/stunned models with the Undead SA are not valid targets for vampirism.

 

vampires that I can think of off the top of my head: Crimson Knights, Judas Bloodspire, Vandrian, Bloodseeker, Elsabeth. There are others I believe, but those are the ones I face regularly :)

 

 

That seems pretty decent. Thanks for the info.

[spiritual_exorcist]

Vampires may also use an 'Invoke Action' when in base to base with a Chattel model to remove the Chattel model from play and gain a single wound.

 

Athak, Osric, Naomi, and Tharian are also all Vampires.

[jdripley]

That seems pretty decent. Thanks for the info.

little more than just pretty decent No other faction gets free healing just sitting on the ground as the natural result of the game getting played

[spiritual_exorcist]

I don't think under most circumstances this will be nearly as nasty as it was previously, primarily because the healing of a single damage track doesn't mean nearly as much, and for the most part there will be alot fewer stunned and dead tokens on the battlefield as most army lists are alot smaller than they were previously. Not to mention the high cost of the vampires means you can't really field all that many in a force anyhow. I'd call this faciton ability toned down in the new edition, but still quite nice.

[jdripley]

I'm not really convinced that 1 track healing isn't as significant - at least, that the significance is low now.

 

Sure, before you went from "almost dead with broke stats" to "alive with great stats" but now healing one track here and there is the difference between dying this turn or next turn - and since models are capable fighters all throughout their lifespan, they remain threats. Compound this by a replenishing source of healing for the vampire, and it becomes overwhelming. Add in a super cheap screen of skeletons to soften the incomming force, and now the vampires have a few tokens before they even enter combat AND the ones they fight are weakened and already pretty close to becomming corpses.

 

Think of it this way. An intelligent vampire player will not engage your adept troops with his crimson knight troop right away. He'll either hold them in reserve or hit your grunts. In this way he keeps the crimson knights from serious harm until the battlefield is positively littered with corpses - we're talking, 5-10 easy, and before it's done you'll have something like 20ish in all. Now the crimson knights can enter the battle with a ready supply of healing. Since their stats are good, they won't take serious damage without luck. So their opponent is relying on a 20ish % chance to hit, which the vampire player can easily handle since there's enough corpse tokens on the battlefield to recover from that. Meanwhile the non-vampire player is suffering the same hit rate or higher, but does not have access to that kind of healing. Realistically only Crusaders have anything close to that, and they have to pay points and use up slots in their troops to bring the hospitaliers. I challange any non-vampire player to build a viable army that allows them to potentially heal even 20 tracks in a 1501 army. You've got a max of, say, 5 turns to do it. I bet you can't do it.

 

And models like Judas? The guy's practically impossible to kill these days. He can rush straight into combat if he feels like it, relying on his excellent stats. You can swarm him, but even a great swarm with high MAV values, support, reach support... still will have 50% to hit, meaning the sucker doesn't die. So then he relies on his high Dis value to break away and fly and retreat. Did I mention that he hoses one or two of your guys on defensive strikes? Then part way through the battle, he swoops in from flight, with impunity, to land on two corpses, heals two tracks, and next activation either heals more or flies away to repeat it elsewhere. So unless you're lucky, you can't kill Judas.

 

However, if vampires could only feed off of Stunned models, this entire thing would be less of an issue because vampires would only have the stunned models at that moment as viable lunchboxes. Judas couldn't wait half a battle for the corpse piles to get high. The Crimson Knights wouldn't gain an overwhelming advantage by hanging back for a round or two.

 

 

edit: I'm gonna try this next time I get together with the guys - 3 crimson knights versus 1501 of goblins. I bet you the knights will win.

[wrightjd]

I think one thing everyone is forgetting is that every other faction in the game has another way to heal. The ONLY way for vampires to heal is to drain damage tracks. And then you can only heal one damage track at a time. I don't think this is nearly so powerful as people are making it out to be. If anything I'd say this is now one of the least powerful SAs, especially when sized up against something like sure shot or the darkspawn.

 

By the way, if Judas is flying into two corpses, how is he draining those two corpses in that one round? Don't get wrong, Judas is definitely a beast, but Vampires, even with feeding, can still have their rears handed to them. In a standoff battle I saw my crimson knights get flat out dominated by some trolls. Maybe vampires now just need a change of tactics?

[wrightjd]

Realistically only Crusaders have anything close to that, and they have to pay points and use up slots in their troops to bring the hospitaliers. I challange any non-vampire player to build a viable army that allows them to potentially heal even 20 tracks in a 1501 army. You've got a max of, say, 5 turns to do it. I bet you can't do it.

 

Heal twenty points in a game? Give the dwarven high cleric 3 cure 3s. There's nine without even trying. Or 2 cure 3s and a cure 4. I'm limiting him to just 3 spells so he has some time to melee also, just in case there's a complaint about the cleric warlord not meleeing. 2 3s and a 4 gives you 10 points. Ivar with 2 Cure 2s and 2 Cure 3s just caught up to all the healing a vampire army is going to do in a game, except it's going to require significantly less activiations.

 

You could also take 20 Cure 1s, and that would be the same amount of points as before, but take significantly more time.

 

Also, just want to point out, that pretty much any army can do that with similar ease. Other than perhaps the Overlords.

[jdripley]

Heal twenty points in a game? ... Also, just want to point out, that pretty much any army can do that with similar ease. Other than perhaps the Overlords.

 

Yes, and you'll pay quite a bit for it. A vampire player in a 1500ish point game will have somewhere around 20 or 30 models that are potential healing. Let's go with 10 just to prove the point with a lesser number.

 

So we have 10 "tracks" of healing that the vampire player gets. He doesn't need to roll to get them, just be where the bodies are (which happens because combat happens), so there's a 100% chance he can get them. Dispute that if you want, it's technically not accurate, but remember that we're using a significantly lower number of heals for this example.

 

At the rate of what healing spells cost, that's 100 points in spells that you took, compared to 0 points the vampire player paid for his healing. Now factor in chance to hit for the clerics. Neb-Nesew Nepet has a 100% chance to hit, so if you want to take *the* best cleric in the game, you aren't losing any more than 100 points. Dwarven high cleric, you miss 1/10th of your spells, if your rolling matches mathematical probability, so you paid 100 points for 90 points worth of healing. Pay 110, 120 to be safe if you still want 10 heals. But now, most factions don't have access to a powerful cleric like that. And even the factions that do - are we saying that the only way to break even versus Vampires is to use only the creme of the crop? Shouldn't I be able to have a viable list using any models? So use your "typical" cleric with CP 5. 50% chance to hit with spells, meaning you're spending at least 200 points in spells just to heal 10 tracks. Now we're really talking about a significant points deficit when trying to keep up with vampirism.

 

Remember, my point isn't that vampirism is horrible and should go away, only that it's a little bit too much and that an adjustment needs to be made to bring its relative advantages in line with what other factions can also boast. No other FA's grant such a useful thing in such a large quantity, and I'd prefer to see it brought in line a little better.

[spiritual_exorcist]

Vampires were never broken previously, let alone now. If you let Vampires tromp you regularly you probably weren't think outside the box.

 

Ever tried taking cheap troops, and looting your own stunned models? Vampires can't feed from a model you've already looted. Ever faced Army of Justice with Vampires.

 

Judas is 241 points, and should be extremely tough to kill, sure he can fly away and feed off of bodies, but flying is an invoke action, and he can only fly 10 and he can't loot the same turn.

 

I think you've likely been beat up by Vamps a couple of times and have adopted a defeatist attitude.

 

You'd have to have one hell of a dedicated Vampire player to have 20-30 Crimson Knights on the field, and it certainly can't be done for 1500 points

 

Judas-241

11 Knights -759

 

Elsabeth-107

5 Knights - 345

 

That's 18 Vampire models for 1500 points, the most you can get. And I think for 1500 points there are alot better forces that cen be played in this game.

 

The more models your opponent has, the more he facilitates your ability to heal when you are using Vampires. I'll agree, you're in real bad shape if you take goblins agains them, but the Vampires are in pretty tough nick against armies with a limited model count (Reptus and Dwarves for example). Why? Becasue if you are maximising your Vampires, you eliminate nearly all variety from your force. Even if you take Tharian or Naomi to get a bit of magic doing so causes your already minimal force to become tiny. Knights Trencher ability is all but wasted points, and Move 5 lis likely to allow your opponent to control the pace of the game, that means 2-3 turns of fire from some forces, Elven Archers, Bull Orc Archers, and every type of X-Bowmen will have a field day with that, with every shot hitting with at least 30% chance of success (assuming no cover). I think Vamps would be a more fearsome force combined with other units that can enable to do what they do best.

 

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, and see how the games turn out, I havn't fielded my Vamps under then new rules, but I expect they'll perform less fantastically that previously.

[wrightjd]

Heal twenty points in a game? ... Also, just want to point out, that pretty much any army can do that with similar ease. Other than perhaps the Overlords.

 

Yes, and you'll pay quite a bit for it. A vampire player in a 1500ish point game will have somewhere around 20 or 30 models that are potential healing. Let's go with 10 just to prove the point with a lesser number.

 

So we have 10 "tracks" of healing that the vampire player gets. He doesn't need to roll to get them, just be where the bodies are (which happens because combat happens), so there's a 100% chance he can get them. Dispute that if you want, it's technically not accurate, but remember that we're using a significantly lower number of heals for this example.

 

At the rate of what healing spells cost, that's 100 points in spells that you took, compared to 0 points the vampire player paid for his healing. Now factor in chance to hit for the clerics. Neb-Nesew Nepet has a 100% chance to hit, so if you want to take *the* best cleric in the game, you aren't losing any more than 100 points. Dwarven high cleric, you miss 1/10th of your spells, if your rolling matches mathematical probability, so you paid 100 points for 90 points worth of healing. Pay 110, 120 to be safe if you still want 10 heals. But now, most factions don't have access to a powerful cleric like that. And even the factions that do - are we saying that the only way to break even versus Vampires is to use only the creme of the crop? Shouldn't I be able to have a viable list using any models? So use your "typical" cleric with CP 5. 50% chance to hit with spells, meaning you're spending at least 200 points in spells just to heal 10 tracks. Now we're really talking about a significant points deficit when trying to keep up with vampirism.

 

Remember, my point isn't that vampirism is horrible and should go away, only that it's a little bit too much and that an adjustment needs to be made to bring its relative advantages in line with what other factions can also boast. No other FA's grant such a useful thing in such a large quantity, and I'd prefer to see it brought in line a little better.

 

First, CP 5 is a 60% chance to hit with spells. A 5-10 all succeed. And no other faction grants such a useful thing in large quantity? Don't forget about mercy, pain cage, elves faction ability (giving all elven archers sure shot), enrage/warcry; among others. Especially now, when it's actually a more fair game to field more expensive heavy hitting models, thus leading to smaller armies, which leaves healing out.

 

Do I think vampires have an advantage over huge swarm armies like goblins? Absolutely. Do I think vampires (and their feeding ability) are going to dominate a force of 15 reptus packing a full troop of river trolls and Uru? Absolutely not. At best they'll hold their own, more likely they'll get their backsides handed to them.

 

Actually, since the changes I see the vampirism ability as one of hte weaker faction abilities; what is one damage track anyways?

[wrightjd]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, and see how the games turn out, I havn't fielded my Vamps under then new rules, but I expect they'll perform less fantastically that previously.

 

I have fielded the vampires (but not since the last iteration of changes) and they won the day. It wasn't, however, the hands down butt whooping I'm used to handing people when I played the vamps. Sir Osric ( much to my ultimate dismay :( ) dropped in his first round of combat with a single river troll. He had no time to even think about feeding.

[Storminator]

You'd have to have one hell of a dedicated Vampire player to have 20-30 Crimson Knights on the field, and it certainly can't be done for 1500 points

 

Without commenting on the other points, you've misinterpreted jd here.

 

He didn't say the vampire player would have 20 vamps, he said the vampire would have 20 chances to heal. I.e. the vamp opponent brought 20 models, from which the vamp can feed.

 

Carry on!

 

PS