Crusaders

[wrightjd]

Double post again in this thread!

 

So looking to throw a question out there to you avid Crusader players: how do you take on a default reptus force as the Army of Justice? I got run over today using the army listed above, with my opponent still having nearly half his army on the board after he layed the melee beat down on me. I've been trying to think of what I could have done differently (other than remember my units have shock) and I can't really think of anything, he pretty much just layed the beat down on me. His army was:

 

Krung Beast x2

 

Khung-To

Nai-Khanon

Reptus Warrior x4(or 3 can't remember)

Skull Breaker x2

Long Strikerx3

 

Uru

River Troll x6

Reptus Warrior

 

At the end of the game he had 2 long strikers, uru, 3 or 4 trolls, 2 warriors, and one more model which I can't remember (but not Nai-Khanon or Khung-To). This was about the most solid thumping I've ever recieved and still can't really see anything I could have done against this reptus force. A part of it was my rolling, but there was a point where 2 river trolls held up 5 Justicars and dealt out 12 wounds to those 5 justicars (where they only did 8 wounds). Maybe it was just bad luck, but it was a serious smashing. Also to note, I never got to use any of the army special abilities as they never came into play.

[Brushmaster]

Personally , I'm at a loss about how to play against Reptus with Crusader as I believe they are the most powerful faction out there now . The Reptus have no real weakness and models to cover ever facit (flyers, cavalry , cheap grunts , whacking monsters , etc) and they have some real serious FA's with the ability to reroll missed defensive strikes . If there is one thing they may drive me from this game its them .

I'm still very bitter about the game I had yesterday and it was not through supperior tactics but luck and that ability that won him the game .

Edited June 18, 2007 by Brushmaster

[Storminator]

Double post again in this thread!

 

So looking to throw a question out there to you avid Crusader players: how do you take on a default reptus force as the Army of Justice?

 

Why the Army of Justice? Why not default Crusaders? You've got a valid default list, you can't possibly use 2 of the AoJ FAs vs the Reptus, another seems unlikely to make a difference and you didn't use the 4th! Mercy would rock Reptus with their ... poor... Dis.

 

And you forgot Shock!?! Again with the Reptus Dis, that should have saved you half a dozen Jade Strike/Warmaster attacks.

 

Shock vs the Krungbeast...

 

PS

[wrightjd]

Double post again in this thread!

 

So looking to throw a question out there to you avid Crusader players: how do you take on a default reptus force as the Army of Justice?

 

Why the Army of Justice? Why not default Crusaders? You've got a valid default list, you can't possibly use 2 of the AoJ FAs vs the Reptus, another seems unlikely to make a difference and you didn't use the 4th! Mercy would rock Reptus with their ... poor... Dis.

 

And you forgot Shock!?! Again with the Reptus Dis, that should have saved you half a dozen Jade Strike/Warmaster attacks.

 

Shock vs the Krungbeast...

 

PS

 

Well I forgot about it(shock) on the first round and then never got another chance as my calvary got engaged. Also the reason I couldn't play as the default force is that for the tournament I had already selected the Army of Justice, so I couldn't change it up midway, unfortunately.

 

I think right now i'm just in the same position as Brushmaster, as I'm not even sure how the Crusaders (most definitely the sublist) can hope to take on the reptus. I don't really feel my tactics were bad, I even hit him with 2 calvary charges and one was just unlucky (out of 7 attacks with damon and a lion's lancer I only hit Khung-To once), but the rest was just me getting pummelled. Another thing that kills me is I got initiative EVERY round, twice I activated my whole army before he even got to go once (in rounds 2 and 3 which were VERY critical rounds) and I still got pummelled this bad. I hate to think of the outcome had it been him activating first. The Reptus are the pure kings of melee combat (ok maybe tied with dwarfs :P) and an all melee list just cannot help but cater to all the reptus strengths. With the AoJ you don't have any other option but an all melee list.

 

How the game went was our armies actually met each other in the middle of the field, but split in half between the terrain. In each instance his ~750 points decisively beat mine. My Lion's Lancers went against Khung-To's troop and a Krungbeast and Duke Gerard's troop + Conlan's troop went up against the trolls + krungbeast. The Guardian beast came in and helped fight against his Khung-To troop.

 

What it boils down to is I usually will write down armies and come back and replay when I get beaten and see how I might have done things different or what caused me to lose; in this match I just felt like my army was flat out outmatched and out classed in every way. Hopefully others have better experiences against the reptus, but I don't think I'll be returning the the AoJ after this tourney.

[spiritual_exorcist]

Thoughts (I agree that the re-roll on the defensive strike is nasty indeed, but it's here to stay for at least a year so we have to try and deal with it):

 

Reptus weaknesses are as follows from what I can tell: Low discipline, Low model count (high cost per model)

 

So I guess the question is, how does the Crusader army exploit these.

 

1) Army of justice is out with regards to the Reptus, you put yourself at a pretty big disadvantage if you choose to use it. It's so very specific that you can't expect it to do well in a tourney situation (If the organizer allowed you to bring an AOJ build that conformed to default list, and then choose which faction to use against which opponent you'd likely hold your own, but as it is AOJ is wasted abilites against many armies).

 

2) Exploiting low Discipline:

 

-Mercy appears a powerful tool against models like Reptus Warriors (60%), Trolls (50%), Krung Beast (70%), and several of the characters as well (Ra'am for instance). Employing the default list lets you take the opportunity to gain a few extra models against a Reptus Army that is probably short on models to begin with.

 

-Use Shock, pretty powerful ability, and it negates the Reptus re-roll, it's a pity Light cavalry don't have the ability in Warlord, so it requires taking a unit of Lancers. The big problem with that is you end up giving up the advantage of a higher model count.

 

-Fearsome is a great ability, but it is tough for the crusaders to use in any sort of reasonable amounts, still if you field the such models it is going to be tough for them to get mobbed. Might be put to great use to protect a couple of Halbarads on the field healing your models back up.

 

3) Exploiting the Reptus' low model count.

 

-cheap models, cheap leaders, piled into as many units as possible (units of 3-5) to gain as many Conlan/Malcolm/Brannor Healer actions, and as many mercy actions as possible, backed up by a small unit of Hospitaliers...and I hate to be an advocate, but I think First strikers are probably the way to against the Reptus as it means their re-roll will be less effective if you hit them first. If the Reptus start looting their own dead to prevent Mercying it means they can't use Jade Thorns at least.

 

-If they choose to field alot of clutchlings to overcome their model count then they are giving you a real advantage in my opinion. We can discuss fighting against first strikers later if that becomes common place.

 

Against a Reptus army I might think about something like the following (this is what I'd try out and start with, and I'd tweak it depending on what works)

 

1000 points:

 

IronRaven-48

4xIronspines-132

3xHospitaliers-96

=276

 

Malcolm-51

4xIronspines-132

=183

 

Conlan-42

+Divine Vigor-5

4xIronspines-132

=179

 

Conlan-42

+Divine Vigor-5

4-Ironspines-132

=179

 

Conlans-42

+Divine Vigor-5

4xIronspines-132

=179

 

=28 models, 5 initiative cards, 7 Healer models, 21 first strikers, 996 points, 5 possible Mercy attempts each turn

 

Biggest threat, Might be the Hydra, I would suggest if you base it, base it with the first troop but don't attack until a second or third troop is on place to gain full reach and support bonus'. The problem the a force with the Hydra would have is that you could simply ignore the Hydra, sacrifice a troop to put in place a few speed bumps, and use the rest of your force to kick the crude out of the limited number of models that would be supporting it.

 

Ranged attacks might hurt the Crusaders in this situation as well, if you find yourself often up agains them I'd swap 2 of the Ironspines in each troop for Knights and go with more of a mixed troop. (I don't have 20 ironspines, so this is likely what I would actually field)

 

Hospitaliers are there to quickly mercy any models, and heal them back up a few damage tracks.

 

Another though might be to move the Hospitaliers to a unit with Conlan and Malcom and make them more independent.

 

Hospitaliers could be dropped to take a Totem possibly if that is more your style.

 

In a larger game I'd start thinking about The Duke, and taking more Hospitaliers (using The Wolf, and the 2000 point gains you extra adepts rule). Otherwise I'd always stick with cheap troops and I'd avoid models like the Justicars, and stay away from any Elites and Solos.

 

Ivy Crown Skirmishers might be worth a shot if you have access to many of them, and War Dogs could be included if you start of experience alot of problems with Warmaster models.

 

There is a good chance that each unit can take down a model every turn, convert and heal a model on the following turn, and repeat, as your opponents force gets smaller yours will possibly stay about the same as you heal your own troops and gain re-enforcements (all under ideal conditions of course).

[Brushmaster]

Mercy is only good against models that have tough and if your opponent doesn't have any well ........

[Qwyksilver]

Mercy is only good against models that have tough and if your opponent doesn't have any well ........

 

Reptus only have 3 soldier models with tough (and 17 out of their 36 total Models): Reptus Warrior, River Troll and Brood. Now granted, any one of them on their last track is still a pretty nasty force to be reckoned with, especially that Brood.

 

Darkspawn, Dwarves and Reven are going to be your best bet for sheer number of Soldiers available for Mercy.

[Stubbdog]

I cant comment on your game from the other day. I can comment that there are always good game builds and bad gamebuilds. A good build in one game may not be a good build in another game against a different opponent. Crusaders have lots of options and have had them for a while now. Reptus now have lots of options too. Better options? No, just more that have to be accounted for.

 

I play both reptus and crusaders among others. I played a nagendra list against an AOJ list a couple weeks ago and lost. My opponent used the Angel very affectivey. I have also won a games with Reptus..

 

The Jade strike can be significant, but also might not be at all in a game. In my game yesterday (against Necropolis) I used it a total of 5 times. Remember, it only allows one missed re-roll on models with warmaster, not the number of swings a model has.

 

Are the Reptus more significant on the battlefield than they were a month ago? Yes. But that is because they have more options to surprise their enemy with, not because their models are any better.

 

I think this is just a case where, yes you happen to have a list build that was not very affective against a particular enemy build list. But, as you said yourelf, you were in a tourney and were taking a generic list, not a list specific for taking on the Dragonkind. Just like, if I had taken a Nagendra poison specialty list against the Necropolis. That would be a great list against one build, but against the Necros just wouldnt hold up I dont think.

[rgtriplec]

Also you could take Danel, Damon and Lion Lancers in four seperate troops to maximize having shock spread out.

[Brushmaster]

Also you could take Danel, Damon and Lion Lancers in four seperate troops to maximize having shock spread out.

Don't you mean 3 troops unless you're playing more than 2000 points . Lion Lancers are Adepts .

Edited June 18, 2007 by Brushmaster

[Mengu]

Also you could take Danel, Damon and Lion Lancers in four seperate troops to maximize having shock spread out.

Don't you mean 3 troops unless you're playing more than 2000 points . Lion Lancers are Adepts .

Wolf.

[rcrosby]

For 1501, I suggest:

 

Duke Gerard, Sir Damon, 5x Lion's Lancers

Sir Danel, 5x Lion's Lancers

Celestial Lion

30 points of equipment (either 2 musicians or +2DV for Damon)

 

I would stick with Army of Justice because with such a small model count, it would be a disaster for a model to become shaken.

 

Rich

[cristomeyers]

Can Gerard have the Holy Weapon? It says "Good Clerics only." Gerard is a Cleric 2/6, or is it limited to models designated "Cleric" like Halbarad?

[Qwyksilver]

Any Good Aligned model with Cleric X/Y

[spiritual_exorcist]

Mercy is only good against models that have tough and if your opponent doesn't have any well ........

 

If a Reptus player ignores Trolls and Reptus warriors in favor of other troop types then I believe they begin limiting themselves in a way that potentially hinder their effectiveness.

 

I know you're typically facing Gaan-Hor, and as I've discussed I think your opponent is abusing these models in a manner not intended (Using flying models in the air to block your ability to base models on the ground, I suggest you ask to have this clarified, as I think it is seriously out of line).

 

As you can't be aggressive against the Gaan Hor, I think having the first strikers is key against them, they are forced to base you, and in doing so they risk taking a first strike attack, which won't stop them from being effective, but might help your position.

 

I also know your opponent enjoys clutchlings, or used to in the past, so I'm guessing you might be facing these. Pound for pound I think the Ironspines are quite a bit better, this is mainly because of their ability to be combined with Healers, because one of the keys about the 3 mainline crusader grunts is that they are all tough/1. It doesn't matter if you lose an Ironspine to kill a clutchling, so long as you are in a position to heal that model with Conlan, Malcolm, or a Hospitalier. THe high number of troops means you have a better chance of doing this.

 

Against Trolls, I'd be 100% looking at them as targets to Mercy, gang up on them, get the 4 Ironspines and COnlan in base-to base, attack with the Ironspines, and Mercy with Conlan. With luck you might be able to activate that troop again in short order, and heal the Troll another damage track, or heal back up a stunned Ironspine.

 

The Biggest threat might be Breakers, but if you deal with them in packs, and concentrate your resources, I think First Strike will prove pretty effective against them.

 

Just more thoughts, I'm not claiming I have the answers, just trying to be helpful. If what you are doing isn't working, try something different, I'm offering a suggestion.