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After getting more games in the last couple days than I have over the last nine months I've gotten some valuable insight on some of the mechanisms in CAV2. The one that needs to be addressed the most is close combat. Shock+Satchel Charges+fast transports=infantry that decimate CAVs. Infantry have gone from being effectively useless to becoming the superpower of the CAV universe. As it stands right now, I'd rather field sections of Armored Infantry in Badgers, Krakens, and Bears than field an Emperor with supporting cast. Heck, I even started ganging up CAVs on one CAV or vehicle because it was more effective than shooting. This is not thought experiment, but based on the games I played at ReaperCon.

 

Here are some examples:

 

1. In a 2000 Rach v. Terran game, a Rifle Team not even using Satchel Charges destroyed an undamaged Dictator 70 without breaking a sweat (or taking a point of damage). The Dictator had Av/3 but it didn't help one bit.

 

2. In a 2000 Rach v. Rach game a Badger came across the board unloaded two teams which tore two Dictator 70 to shreds, again without damage.

 

3. In a Rach v. Templar game which is probably the single worst example of this two Armored Rifle Teams with Shock and six satchel charges in Krakens killed a Stilletto, a Centurion, and two Duelists and my dice weren't even all that hot. I'm all for effective infantry, but that's excessive. One of the teams killed the Stilleto while the other killed three CAVs, one of them a superheavy. It probably would've been worse if one of the transports hadn't been shot down as I could've ganged them up for support after the last satchel charge was used. Try these forces (or something similar) and see how it goes:

 

Templars (Pimped Out Rides)

Armored Section

Centurion

Duelist x3, two with ECM Pod upgrade

 

Recon Section

2 Stilleto

2 Sabre (IIRC they were upgraded with EST)

 

vs.

 

Rach (No Mercy)

Mech Inf Section

Kraken x2

Armored Rifle Team x2, with Shock and six Satchel Charges

 

Specialist Section

Vanquisher x2

Kahn with Av/3

 

Mortar Section

Badger x2

Armored Mortar Team x2, with Adjustable Munitions

 

To be honest, the mortars weren't all that effective, the points would've been better spent on more rifle teams. Anyway, the point is that one Armored Rifle Team using five of the six available satchel charges (coupled with the cost of the one Kraken he rode in came to 332 points) killed 1428 points of models.

 

So, all that said, here are my proposals:

 

1) Reword shock so that only dismount is a free action

2) Reword dismount so that infantry cannot dismount directly into B2B contact

3) Get rid of the "go until it's dead" close combat sequence and use something more akin to Warlord. Instead of having a primary attacker, each model in B2B contact with the target gets a single attack for that activation and a +1 support bonus for each friendly model in B2B with the target. So if I want to do more than one point of damage to a target in close combat in one activation, I have to attack with more than one infantry team. Target takes it's defensive strike at any one of the models which performed a close combat action.

4) To break contact, the target must make an d10+Exp vs 10 roll on it's activation as part of movement.

5) Create a one-time use asset similar to Satchel Charge for CAVs/vehicles that can be used in addition to Avenger.

 

That's my thoughts on the subject. Feel free to discuss/ignore at your leisure.

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3) Get rid of the "go until it's dead" close combat sequence and use something more akin to Warlord. Instead of having a primary attacker, each model in B2B contact with the target gets a single attack for that activation and a +1 support bonus for each friendly model in B2B with the target. So if I want to do more than one point of damage to a target in close combat in one activation, I have to attack with more than one infantry team. Target takes it's defensive strike at any one of the models which performed a close combat action.

 

I've suggested this from day one for the same basic reasons you experienced.

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I don't see any reason why a 30 foot tall CAV can't automatically break from close combat with infantry, don't these things move on the order of 50-60 mph? Your observations are not unique, several people made similar comments.

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I'm not sure if 1 point of damage per turn is significant enough for CC to be worthwhile--it seems like it would get everything pinned down, when it's supposed to be quick and deadly. It does need to stop somewhere, but I think there should be potential for 2-3 tracks of damage to be dealt somehow.

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5) Create a one-time use asset similar to Satchel Charge for CAVs/vehicles that can be used in addition to Avenger

 

Now this wouldn't be breaking the bank or seem too far out there. Even in todays world thay have those bulletproof limos and vip transports that have things like gas and what equates to bb's to distract assailants if they get too close to said vip. Basiacally the mechanic is someone gets too close and you feel threatened....you press the shinny red button and lay out everybody around you. I saw that on a tv show about 10 years ago now. I'm sure in a bit over 2 centuries with alien technology that it will be improved upon slightly. :devil:

 

Shock and the airborne drop sa need to be dismount only and remount as an action the next activation. After all seeing as an activation takes 4 seconds...you really see a unit of infantry jumping off a plane go run up blow up a cav while shooting the piss out of it and then jumping back into that same plane in the same 4 seconds?....comeon.

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Close combat has been one of those issues that has been on the CAV plate since day one for many of us. Close combat works, and it doesn't. It really isn't one factor that makes or breaks it but a heavy combination of them.

 

1. High DV, Soft, Fast transports: Your infantry don't mean a thing if they can get to the target. The starting problem is that getting there isn't all that hard in may cases. Transports is several cases are harder to take out than CAVs due to the high DVs combined with few units with a high shredder value on a weapon with any amount of range (yes flamers and MGs are great but not against something that has a movement 3+ times greater than your range.)

 

2. CAV CCVs bite. Other than Avenger there just isn't much a CAV,tank, or FV can do to guard against the infantry rush. There needs some type of anti personel devices in higher degrees than just Avenger.

 

3. CC goes until death. There needs to be the potential of a stopping point. A single point of damage would make CC pointless again but without a chance to break away it is making this a close combat game for infantry rather than a long range shooting one. I think that if you damage your attacker then there should be a chance to break.

 

4. Shock and Airbourne are just a bit too effective with the free actions to hop on and off your transports all day long. Of course this is something that is already being talked about and hopfully addressed.

 

If close combat and infantry are to be fixed and not just broken in the opposite direction then all of these factors need to be looked at together.

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The way my suggestion would work is that if I have three infantry stands attacking a CAV, each one has a chance to damage the CAV, or in other words I would have three chances to damage the CAV. There's still a chance for multiple damage being dealt in a single activation, especially if you're using No Mercy. If you manage to surround a CAV with six stands that's enough to fell most CAVs provided they're all successful which they probably will be with all the support bonuses. But the thing is, you've now tied up all six in doing so.

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I don't see any reason why a 30 foot tall CAV can't automatically break from close combat with infantry, don't these things move on the order of 50-60 mph? Your observations are not unique, several people made similar comments.

 

 

The base RAGE mechanic is sound and I think we can all agree on that but all my testing data agrees with exactly what Crunch is saying.

 

 

I fought long and hard during 1.5 closed beta to get a compromise about this anvil. The compromise was that a non-infantry model could leave CC any time with the infantry getting one free attack as they went. My argument too Matt Ragan was to go stand on I-35 and physically restrain the next car that came along. Infantry being able to "lock up" a vehicle disapeared after that but reappeared in CAV 2

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I don't see any reason why a 30 foot tall CAV can't automatically break from close combat with infantry, don't these things move on the order of 50-60 mph? Your observations are not unique, several people made similar comments.

 

 

The base RAGE mechanic is sound and I think we can all agree on that but all my testing data agrees with exactly what Crunch is saying.

 

 

I fought long and hard during 1.5 closed beta to get a compromise about this anvil. The compromise was that a non-infantry model could leave CC any time with the infantry getting one free attack as they went. My argument too Matt Ragan was to go stand on I-35 and physically restrain the next car that came along. Infantry being able to "lock up" a vehicle disapeared after that but reappeared in CAV 2

 

 

If you manage to surround a CAV with six stands that's enough to fell most CAVs provided they're all successful which they probably will be with all the support bonuses. But the thing is, you've now tied up all six in doing so.

 

Maybe one free attack per infantry stand as the vehicle breaks combat?

 

Also, I like the idea of a CAV satchel charge. It doesn't seem far fetched at all to strap a bunch of grape canisters or flechette pods to the legs of a CAV.

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Also, I like the idea of a CAV satchel charge. It doesn't seem far fetched at all to strap a bunch of grape canisters or flechette pods to the legs of a CAV.

 

I think that's what the idea behind Avenger is, but it's not effective enough.

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Also, I like the idea of a CAV satchel charge. It doesn't seem far fetched at all to strap a bunch of grape canisters or flechette pods to the legs of a CAV.

 

that was the original purpose of the AP gear SA in the 1.5 rules. We can go back and look at that, but probably after looking at CC as a whole first.

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The way my suggestion would work is that if I have three infantry stands attacking a CAV, each one has a chance to damage the CAV, or in other words I would have three chances to damage the CAV. There's still a chance for multiple damage being dealt in a single activation, especially if you're using No Mercy. If you manage to surround a CAV with six stands that's enough to fell most CAVs provided they're all successful which they probably will be with all the support bonuses. But the thing is, you've now tied up all six in doing so.

 

See, I really don't think that's effective enough. That amount of infantry will cost more than the CAV they're targeting; it'll take another few hundred points of transports to get them there, and only two or three will be in base contact on the first turn. Also, No Mercy then becomes extremely powerful in relation; it basically enables 3-4 stands of Rach infantry to reliably take out anything in one turn.

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it basically enables 3-4 stands of Rach infantry to reliably take out anything in one turn

 

As opposed to the one stand of infantry that does it regularly now., with or without the No Mercy.

 

The compromise might be that its done in a warlord style with the single attack phase per single turn, but infantry and or specific specialty models might get two strikes in that attack phase. Thinking of it in terms of warlord, think of it as an archer with two melee swings. It can either take one RAV shot or get into b2b and have 2 MAV strikes.

 

So, a single infantry is not going to destroy a 2-5 times more expensive model, but can do some significant damage if they hit on both. And No Mercy models could either still get auto 2 points per hit or if that is determined to be too much, then instead they have 1 RAV or 3 MAV attempts.

 

With both of those, you can have infantry do their primary job of foot slogging it, and then also do the CC thing and get something out of, instead of having them simply for CC and CC only.

 

And if you take 3-4 stands, they can take down a CAV in a single activation. But, it takes taking 3-4 (2-3 for smaller CAVs) not 1.

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