Pre-Painted Plastics vs Metal and related Debate

[Hexxenhammer]

Geez, this thread grew. Here's how Hex will use these (as long as the variety is eventually there).

 

I'm DMing and Drow happen to be the main baddies. But, I don't have any Drow minis. In one of the encounters I'll need 10 drow. If I buy these in pewter, they'll be like $35. And they'll take hours and hours to paint. If my game is coming up on Friday, I'm not going to do this. Either I switch the baddies to something I've got, or spend a whole combat explaining that the orcs are drow and the bugbears are troglodytes.

 

What I'm doing now is scour ebay for commons of minis I might need in large numbers for D&D. This is slow and frustrating. But if I can snatch up a couple of pre-painted plastic packs of drow for a reasonable price, say $10-$15, then I will.

 

Wargaming (and Warlord) for me are very different. I'm not going to use these plastics for it. I like painting up armies to a theme. But that's just me. I couldn't care less what someone else does.

 

Lastly weight and fear might attract me to plastic. A fully loaded Army Transport case is heavy. And I hate leaving my minis in my car for any length of time. I shudder when I think of the $ value of what I cart around just to play D&D. If someone rips me off, I'd rather lose plastic than pewter I spent HOURS painting.

[Lars Porsenna]

I think its silly to accuse people who do not like the idea of pre-painted plastic minis of being "elitist snobbery." How are YOU going to define what the hobby is for someone else? We're all supposed to jump up and down and clap with glee with the idea of pre-painted plastic that is inferior to metal painted (unless Reaper does something radical, I doubt the pre-paints will be as good as what I can do). For some people the Hobby isn't about pushing toy soldiers around on a mat with a piece of paper that says "woods;" for some people it is about the spectacle of the game, the craftmanship behind the figures, the feeling of satisfaction of two like minded gamers.

 

I also think the idea of pre-paints not having an impact on metal is disingenouis. There is indeed a lot of people that have their pewter armies, and have no intention of painting. They represent a rather significant fraction, I would bet. With pre-painted plastics, this will IMHO take away from the metal hobby. I can forsee a time when plastics dominate the hobby, and there is no longer ANY choice (speaking long-term). A bit of compassion for those of us that dislike the idea of someone else doing our hobby for us.

 

Finally, I think the excuse that we can just strip the figures and repaint is never a solution I can ever make work. I have yet to successfully strip a pre-paint (and -- I know what some will say -- just painting over the pre-paint job defeats the purpose of repainting to make them look better; again unless Reaper really steps up the quality of pre-paints, the more layers of paint you add, the less detail you will have -- thus the reason why we THIN our paints!)...

 

Damon.

[Sergeant_Crunch]

What irritates me is the Chicken Little types that run around screaming "The Hobby is dying! The Hobby is dying!" But like both sides seem to be saying, the definition of "The Hobby" is different for each person. Will prepaints impact the overall market? Yes, otherwise no one would bother making them. But to scream that it's the end of the world or completely walk away from a game becuase there's the OPTION of using PPMs is a little ridiculous. I'm not saying we need to have a big love-fest or anything, but really, the extreme statements aren't necessary.

[kristof65]

I think its silly to accuse people who do not like the idea of pre-painted plastic minis of being "elitist snobbery." How are YOU going to define what the hobby is for someone else? We're all supposed to jump up and down and clap with glee with the idea of pre-painted plastic <snip>

It's one thing to not like the idea of pre-painted plastic, and that doesn't make someone a snob. But there have been some comments here that can be construed as elitist snobbery - for example, refusing to play a game with someone who uses only the prepainted plastics could be constured that way. I know people who feel that way about simply primed miniatures, and then turn around and complain that they don't get to play enough.

 

I like the painting and modeling aspect, so I probably won't use a lot of the pre-painted plastics, if any. But that doesn't mean I can't see the good things they'll bring to the hobby. You don't have to like them to see the beneifts they bring along with them. And Ed has specifically stated that they aren't intended to replace their existing line, at least not for the foreseeable future.

 

I also think the idea of pre-paints not having an impact on metal is disingenouis. There is indeed a lot of people that have their pewter armies, and have no intention of painting. They represent a rather significant fraction, I would bet. With pre-painted plastics, this will IMHO take away from the metal hobby. I can forsee a time when plastics dominate the hobby, and there is no longer ANY choice (speaking long-term). A bit of compassion for those of us that dislike the idea of someone else doing our hobby for us.

Metal will become rarer, but you can't pin the blame on strictly molded plastics and prepaints. It will always be around - as long as there are sculptors out there like Werner and Sandra, somebody will be casting their stuff in metal. Plus it's stil a fairly inexpensive way for low production run minis.

 

The real "threat" to metal miniatures will be 3d printing. I've seen action figures "printed" on a Z-Corp machine that only costs $30k that look as good as a production molded action figure. As resolution of these printers goes up, and costs come down, you'll start seeing more and more figures produced this way. Already this method is used for masters for traditional molding - Reaper does it with CAV and Crusoe is doing it for his line. Soon you'll start to see custom "print" runs of miniatures - one off figures done to exactly to the customer's specs.

 

Eventually, table top games will evolve to the point where you download your rules and figures, customize your figures on screen, then print them all out at home and go play. For awhile, there will be painting required, but then eventually the color resolution of those printers will start to match handpainted quality. Eventually, the metal figure part of the hobby will be back to a few people who enjoy handcasting their own figures, which is where it came from. But it will never die completely.

 

Just as everyone expected "Desktop Publishing" to replace the traditional printing press as computers and laser printers came down in price. A lot of businesses did suffer as a result (the typesetting firm I once worked for is long since out of business, as are most of their peers), but in the long run, a new, similar industry has cropped up making publishing more accessible to everyone.

 

So yes, the hobby is changing and evolving. We can adapt and enjoy it, or we can be stubborn and whine about it.

[Crusoe the Painter]

Hey, if someone wants a custom fig done, talk to me again in May. I won't be able to print it in color, but a one-off metal is a definite possibility. :D

 

Could even get it in bronze....

[csp kris]

Just a quick question...

 

Are those who are strongly against (or largely uninterested) in this new range folks who use miniatures primarily for war games / skirmish games (generally Warlord)?

 

And are those that think this range is an absolute godsend primarily RPG gamers (generally D&D)?

 

Obviously there will be some crossover... but I was just interested to know if this was the general trend amongst the two extremes of opinions, or if one statement was truer than the other.

[Darthiir]

Just a quick question...

 

Are those who are strongly against (or largely uninterested) in this new range folks who use miniatures primarily for war games / skirmish games (generally Warlord)?

 

And are those that think this range is an absolute godsend primarily RPG gamers (generally D&D)?

 

Obviously there will be some crossover... but I was just interested to know if this was the general trend amongst the two extremes of opinions, or if one statement was truer than the other.

 

I'm interested in them for both. While I love my Elf and Overlord factions for Warlord, I would never think about making a Reven horde. . .but now prepainted goblins. . . .oh, the havoc you could wreck with 1501 of pure goblin fun.

 

Not to mention throwing all those same goblins at the d&d gaming buddies . . . you place a new one on the table just as fast as the scoop the dead ones off, or you leave the piles of dead on the table to provide cover for the little buggers.

[chesme]

Oh my, yes... how this thread has grown.

 

I have to add: how can Reaper in their right mind release such a groundbreaking announcement and not have any sample pictures to go with it!?!? I didn't mean for that to sound like I'm angry. It was more in jest than anything else. It's just frustrating to wait an unknown amount of time for an example of the quality we might be seeing.

 

 

I really think it is much too soon to say this is the death of the miniature painting hobby. Truly, will a new line of prepaints make you quit what you love doing? Judging from the wonderful pictures you can find in this very forum, they haven't yet. This isn't the first line produced and surely it won't be the last. No matter what, people will still do what they love. Like kristof65 said, even if in the far, far future companies stop producing metal figures, there will always be garage/home made ones.

 

For a point that was brought up and I feel runs parallel to this fear: I'm an artist who fancies herself as a miniature sculptor. I would love to one day to make a living off of my sculpting, though am I going to quit sculpting because 3d printing is on the horizon? Absolutely not! I know it's there and I know it's just going to improve in time, possibly taking most sculpting jobs. Even if that happens, I will still be sculpting my little people... and I'll probably have one of those garages making you metal figures you can paint.

 

Now, how about some more words from Reaper on this? Please?

[Sergeant_Crunch]

I don't roleplay anymore, my interest in them is purely for use in WL. As I said a few pages ago, I want to play WL, but don't enjoy painting fantasy figures nearly as much as I do sci-fi figures. Just ask the 20 or 30 Warlord minis on the second shelf above my monitor waiting have more than their faces basecoated.

[TheDungeonDelver]

Well I for one am going to join the dissenters here and say that I think that this is categorically a bad idea.

 

1. Plastic doesn't hold a candle to metal. I'm sorry, but it doesn't. The best plastic minis I've ever seen (what Reaper has in mind notwithstanding) come from GW. GW's plastics aren't good, quite frankly. Don't get me started on the hideous parade of misshapen rubber lumps masquerading as miniatures that have been spat forth from China through the Hasborg valve - those things should be resigned to the nightmares of demented Tim Burton fans, not sold as gaming accessories. Metal minis are simply capable of holding more, and better, detail than plastic. Nothing I've seen over the years can convince me otherwise, and trust me I've seen companies that have tried.

 

2. Let's assume for a moment that Reaper gets a significant chunk of WotC's fanbase interested and looking at these new prepaints rather than DDM. What do you think WotC's reaction - excuse me, Hasbro's reaction - to a sudden, noticable dip in income will be? I'll tell you what it'll be: an equal escalation on their part. Whoop, suddenly you can buy "official" DDMs in non-random fashion. The DDM fanboys will flock back, and that will be that. Or alternately, Reaper will never attract them and the prepaints will wind up being phased out (which in and of itself is a good thing, but the injury overall will be that now Reaper is stuck with an unprofitable mini-making process that they may be tied in to via contract (assuming they won't be producing them in house). So then Reaper would be by dint of law haemorraging money with no way to make it stop. Unlike the Exalted or L5R brands, they don't just have molds that will either be destroyed or thrown away or not used, they have a whole process they can't use. Major bucks thrown away.

 

3. Spending money on this WILL affect metal minis. I'm sorry. Look, if I have a manufacturing budget set up and I'm Reaper's comptroller and 10% goes to paints, 2% to "other supplies", 50% to payroll and associated HR type costs, building maintenance and so on and so forth and another 32% goes to miniature production - AND ALL OF THOSE MINIATURES ARE METAL - where is the money to produce PLASTIC minis going to come from? Where? From payroll? Somehow I don't see that happening. Dropping paints? Maybe - but unless they go away completely then that's really not going to be an effective amount of capital to spend on a new product line. The 2% that goes to green stuff, empty jars, brushes, the magazine, etc? Again, not really enough capital. So, no, I'm sorry, that doesn't add up to me. The money to do this is coming from somewhere, and unless some billionaire venture capitalist has jumped in with a few megabucks he wants spent on plastics only, that money is coming from other mini lines. The pie is being cut into smaller slices, which means less money spent on producing quality metal minis.

 

4. Corallary to #2, during the false spring of Reaper drawing away DDM fans and really making the bucks for however long that lasts prior to the inevitable Hasborg reaction, what do any of you think Reaper will do if these things begin to outsell the metal minis at 2:1 or 3:1 or god forbid 4 or 5:1? What? Do you think they're going to look at declining sales of metal minis and go "Oh yeah but we made a promise on our message boards that we wouldn't curb metal mini production. So keep putting money in to the product we just submarined."? 'Cause if you do, you need to get a refund for your MBA, it didn't take.

 

You know, I'd like to be proven wrong. I'd like to see in two or three years the current output rate of metal minis as well as whatever the plastic mini fans want going strong. I'd like to see Hasborg writhing in pain from every prepainted plasticine mini sale made by Reaper. I'd like to see the field of metal minis being sold at Sci-Fi City go unabated.

 

I am very, very skeptical that this will happen. No, switching to plastics is going to cause something to go haywire, and it is going to negatively impact what are the best metal minis in the world.

 

:(

[EntilZha]

I don't roleplay anymore, my interest in them is purely for use in WL. As I said a few pages ago, I want to play WL, but don't enjoy painting fantasy figures nearly as much as I do sci-fi figures. Just ask the 20 or 30 Warlord minis on the second shelf above my monitor waiting have more than their faces basecoated.

 

I mentioned to someone (I forget who) a while back that plastic minis are about the only way I'd consider getting into Warlord. The thought of painting and detailing ALL the minis you need for an army gives me the screaming willies.

[Crusoe the Painter]

But people don't BUY reaper metals for squadsof figs. I mean, Warlord is pretty small potatos compared to other games. People buy the metals for player characters, and the painting hobby. Besides, it getting to expensive to fight LARGE battles with metal figures. I think Wargods of Aegyptus is a great game. But it's too darn expensive! Selling plastics of 'grunts' is not gonna impact Dark Heaven, nor most of the existing Warlord line. People are still going to buy player characters, generals, officers, etc. It's the grunts that kill me.

 

I mean, Warmachine is approaching $5/fig now....

 

So let's just get them a chance! I know for me, figure costs are incresingly impacting how involved I can get. Back when metals were around $2/fig, I played battlestorm with skeles. Now, I can't afford to do that.

[Brooding Paladin]

Wow. This I thought I'd never see, but obviously I wasn't looking hard enough. I can't claim to be elitist one way or the other, but I can't deny that as I read the news my reaction is disappointment. I've held Reaper in high regard as sort of a bastion of defiance against this plastic craze but that's a figment of my own romanticism.

 

The fact is:

 

1. There's a raw materials reality: tin and the mining industry around it are in high demand and short supply. Things are tough for the metal-lovers because this means a higher cost, and...

 

2. There's a margin reality: the higher raw materials cost and the limited upward price point put the squeeze on profit margins. This is also a tough industry to be in as all things gaming have been in a bit of a recession of late. There are a few things moving in a positive direction though meaning...

 

3. There's a market reality: most don't paint, don't want to paint, or, as has been pointed out, don't have time/money to paint large grunt-type forces. BUT, plastic miniatures have met the need nicely. Businesses that don't adapt to their changing market aren't businesses for long.

 

Truth is, I trust Reaper to be the top shelf on this. They're already differentiating by resisting the Siren Song of "blind, randomized" box sets. This boldly eliminates the need for a secondary market that I think people are weary of having to go through to get the specific mini they need/want. I believe that many in the market will welcome this and even be willing to pay a higher price point for the convenience of getting what they want without having to deal with ebay, etc. I also bet that the sculpts will remain high-quality, etc. It'll be a boon for Warlord as well, no doubt.

 

I'm not thrilled to see (big assumption warning) that one of my favorite companies will wind up outsourcing another product line. I can't help but feel that leveraging overseas painting factories for the plastic addiction is exploitive. That's obviously not the business side of me talking but it's another source of my disappointment. Yes, that's a major assumption, prone to error and misdirection, but that's how you make the plastic line hit the margins. I just personally feel that it's sickening.

 

As a company, I'd say Reaper is making a shrewd move and has already jammed its flag in the ground proudly in its differentiation. I'd actually bet this move will pay off greatly for them and the MBA part of me salutes them as wishes them well.

 

But the gamer and metal-miniature enthusiast in me is sad and feels like a little something in me just died.

[Dai-Mongar]

Thought I'd throw my bit in here (everyone else and their dog seems to be). I like to paint; even if I'm not a pro, it's a fun way to relax and show off a bit. The problem I have, living in a relatively small town is that there just isn't a "gaming scene" to speak of. I proudly flaunt my geekiness in front of all my friends and coworkers, and many of them see a game like Warhammer or Warmachine and say "whoa, that's awesome... but I couldn't paint that". Just the other day I came into work with my brand new Gorthor the Beastlord I had bought earlier that day, and my friend said "y'know, that looks pretty cool. *&^% painting it though".

I guess I'm kind of rambling here. But the point is, I would love to be able to tell these people that they can buy Reaper Legendary Encounters PPMs and start to play some fun games - after all, that's what it's about for me. And I can always give them pointers on painting up metal characters and the like in between games.

Okay, moment over. Sorry to inflict that upon the world.

[Enchantra]

I deal with enough debate of topics over where I moderate so I'll stay out of the debate issues here.

 

The first time I ever saw a miniature it was some plastic minis that had been pre-painted that someone had then re-painted. I found them intriguing, studied a couple and thought, "hrm, I wonder if I could paint these?"

 

Well, a year later I was dating a guy in Vancouver BC who was into gaming, and he wanted painted miniatures. Since his fine motor skills were not the best due to a birth defect, I decided I'd give it a shot for him and he bought up an army worth of minis. Over the course of two weeks I painted them up while I was visiting him and he was at work during the day. I made several trips to the hobby store on foot, bought more minis, brushes, and paint. Next thing I knew I was addicted, severely. Later that year he recieved two dozen painted minis from me for Christmas (Yeah shipping those through customs was fun.) and he loved them.

 

Here I am now five years later after first touching a brush to a mini, and I really don't care if they are metal or plastic as long as I can paint them. If I can paint it, convert it, sculpt on it, I'm all for it.

 

So my thoughts: Send in the pre-painted minis, send in the unpainted metal. Gimme, I want some more!