Discussion for You Make the Call #2

[Gus Landt]

Have at it!

[rustybolt]

Well going thru the list of spells it seems that clerics have it pretty good. Good cheap heal spells. I don't fully understand the problem? If the problem is that it doen't hit then i guess they should be more devote eh?

 

I play a necro army and for me to heal anything i have to be fighting the right kind of army and be lucky with where i have my vamps and or mage. That is even if i'm playing vamps or choose the life sucker type spells...which are more expensive then heal 1's btw. I just got my wife the razig faction and from what i can see her choices are even smaller as far as healing goes. Like i said i just don't fully understand the nature of the problem here.

[Darthiir]

i think there could be another option. seeing how there are attack spells for clerics now, but their main job is healing. . .

 

 

 

a +2 CP upgrade that only affects friendly models that has to be bought, not a blanket +2cp for friendlies.

[rgtriplec]

i think there could be another option. seeing how there are attack spells for clerics now, but their main job is healing. . .

 

 

 

a +2 CP upgrade that only affects friendly models that has to be bought, not a blanket +2cp for friendlies.

 

I voted for the purchase of +2, higher cps and counter spell.

 

 

Mages get a blanket +2 Familiar, Cleric should too. Clerics main job isn't healing. You may use them that way, but others may use them offensively. I know Dewen has always used them like a mage with the old rules he always had Hold, Fear, Slow, Dispel, Felling etcetera, and he sometimes would take four or five in his Nefsokar builds.

 

They should also get counter spell and cheaper spells. I figure the current spells are fine, but would like to see new cheaper ones for the expansions of the Elves, Dwarfs and Sisters and Lupines... since they are all cleric heavy or good affiliated. A cleric should get every benifit the Mages have. I hope the Elves and Reven get 9 and 10 cp clerics. An elf version of the Witchqueen, and a Bull Ork version of Moandain.

 

I think it is very cool of Gus to make these polls for us.

[spiritual_exorcist]

Voted for:

 

+2 CP upgrade, seems like people really want this, and I don't see it as a game breaker in any way

 

Higher CPs (I'm not looking for a general boost, just a specific one on a few models as I stated in the other thread)

 

Cheapening of cleric spells (once again, just the few I mentioned in the other thread)

 

Counter-spell (I'd support Dispel making it's way into the Mage list as well)

[wrightjd]

I voted for the upgrading of cleric CPs in general, but with a catch. I don't want those little chumpy, cheap clerics getting a boost to CP. Ones that immediately come to mind are Sir Brannor, Sir Conlan, Gonda, the non-unique overlord cleric, the various cheap nefsokar clerics. I would only want to see the big costly models upgraded, namely the unique ones in most cases. This would help limit the applicability of the boost, and keep healing from being dominate and absolutely necessary for an effective build.

 

What to know what I really want to see?

Probably not, but I'm going to let you know anyways!

 

I would like to see those big bad clerics get a boost to DV and MD, along with some new defensive spells. First of all, most clerics I've seen are modelled sporting heavy armor. The highest cleric DV I've seen yet, cleric elite that is, is 11, in the nefsokar list and crusader list. I would like to see clerics having a little bit more staying power. Mages are the glass cannons that get out there and wreak havoc and need to be careful. Clerics are the old men who putter around at the back of the army trying to strap on as much armor as they possibly can.

 

Also, why such narrow amounts of CP on clerics? 5-8 is a tiny range(gonda not included) compared to the 4-10 you're seeing with mages. I wouldn't really consider cleric spells better than mage spells, but that's my opinion I guess.

 

EDIT: Also I stand corrected. Ivar is DV 12 (but an incredibly weak cleric, only CP 5), and Ombur is also 11.

[spiritual_exorcist]

I'm a bit suprised that many people are saying the high CP clerics are the one thye'd want to see get their CP boosted or buy a +2 Magic item CP for. Mt biggest beef is that certain races don't have a mainstay cleric that can cast unmodified cure spells with any better success than 40%. And when they are targetting MD 12 models the're needing 7's to hit with spells.

 

Once a beefy cleric or Mage is into CP 7+ range I'm more than happy with that CP. I guess that's just me. ANd I will take CP 6 models with the intention of rolling vs. CP 10 targets (healing, Blessing etc.)

[wrightjd]

I'm a bit suprised that many people are saying the high CP clerics are the one thye'd want to see get their CP boosted or buy a +2 Magic item CP for. Mt biggest beef is that certain races don't have a mainstay cleric that can cast unmodified cure spells with any better success than 40%. And when they are targetting MD 12 models the're needing 7's to hit with spells.

 

Once a beefy cleric or Mage is into CP 7+ range I'm more than happy with that CP. I guess that's just me. ANd I will take CP 6 models with the intention of rolling vs. CP 10 targets (healing, Blessing etc.)

 

This is just me, I can't really speak for others, but when I take a cheap cleric or a multitasking cleric, I don't expect them to succeed on spells, so I give them low cost spells. However, when I sink the points, somewhere around 80+, on someone who is pretty much just a cleric, I'd like to see their VERY limited amount of spells succeed.

 

Another question I would like to see answered: why do cleric universally have a small spell pool than mages? Most grade 2 mages, for instance, are 2/6 or 2/8, most grade 2 clerics are 2/4 or 2/6.

[Mengu]

Almost every cleric out there can use some defense buff. As such, I think the ideal item would be +2 CP for friendly spells and +1 DV, costed at 30-35 points.

I like arguing with myself, so... Despite liking the above proposition, I ponder the wisdom in dumping a 30-35 point item on 40-60 point CP 5 models like Sir Conlan, Olivia, or Tariq. So without the general rule of +2 CP vs friendlies, I doubt we'll see many spells taken by these models.

[rgtriplec]

Almost every cleric out there can use some defense buff. As such, I think the ideal item would be +2 CP for friendly spells and +1 DV, costed at 30-35 points.

I like arguing with myself, so... Despite liking the above proposition, I ponder the wisdom in dumping a 30-35 point item on 40-60 point CP 5 models like Sir Conlan, Olivia, or Tariq. So without the general rule of +2 CP vs friendlies, I doubt we'll see many spells taken by these models.

 

Sure you will. I know that in our small gaming group that there are three or four of us that have certain builds that take three or four clerics. I had five in a 2000 a couple weeks ago.

 

Using just the Crusaders as an example Conlon, Isarah, Halbarad, Brannor or the Duke are not great clerics but but the upgrade makes most of their non-attack spells automatic or only miss on a 1, which makes them pretty valuable even if they only carry 2 or 3 spells.

 

Almost every cleric out there can use some defense buff. As such, I think the ideal item would be +2 CP for friendly spells and +1 DV, costed at 30-35 points.

 

I'm not too worried about the cleric attack spells not being used. They were only being used by the high CP casters like Khufu and Herryk anyway, who still have access to Familiar. And the high CP casters don't really need the additional friendly buff from this new item, so that would make the regular familiar still useful for some clerics.

 

 

I don't like this option because if you want +2 armour you have to pay for it twice, because you can't stack equiptment bonuses.

 

Corm, Theda, Tallis, Dehanis, Fatima, Marquise, Balthon, and Kiakara all are grade three with cp's of 6 or 7. I think you mean Neb'nesew not Khufu as Khufu is like a 7 cp and grade 2. The two you named happen to be the two clerics with the 8 or 9 cp. All the ones I mentioned are grade 3 and could definately use the help in attack spells. Especially since some are over 100 points.

 

I'd put it in the same class of upgrades as Familiars, so a cleric doesn't buy both the Holy Symbol and the Lesser Familiar.

 

I'd also consider making it unique.

 

PS

 

Equipment bonuses do not stack, which is why giving it a +1 DV is a bad idea because then you can't buy armor, and if you do you don't get the Holy Symbol's +1 DV.

 

It is also the most likely thing to happen at this point.

 

Name: Holy Symbol

Availability: Models with the Cleric SA

Type: Casting Upgrade

Point Cost: 30

Unique: hmm....

Effect: Model gains +1 CP to Attack Spells and +2 CP to Non-Attack Spells.

Notes: None

 

You are wise beyond your years. An excellent answer to the cleric problem.

[Mengu]

Name: Holy Symbol

Availability: Models with the Cleric SA

Type: Casting Upgrade

Point Cost: 30

Unique: hmm....

Effect: Model gains +1 CP to Attack Spells and +2 CP to Non-Attack Spells.

Notes: None

Another angle on this...

 

Greater Familiar gives +2 CP (no drawbacks like non-attack spells, arguably a 30+ point value compared to the +2 MAV and +2 RAV items), and +1 MAV (15 point value, arguably less since it often gets wasted on a mage) for 40 points (around a 5 point discount). Why the double standard for the Cleric? Are their attack spells so much more powerful than an Ice Blast, Firestorm, Chain Lightning, or Lightning Blast that they need to be further handicapped? Why not make it all just +2 CP without complications? Or if you are going to go that far, you could very well open the greater familiar to clerics.

 

Just trying not to get stuck behind the old +2 CP to non-attack spells. That was a "free" ability. If the ability is going to get a cost, it may as well be more worthwhile for the point value.

 

Maybe these different options should receive a quick beta before implementation?

[spiritual_exorcist]

At CP 6 I'll take a couple of 5-10 point spells without hesitation on my lowly casters. A dedicated caster like Halbarad always gets +1 CP pushing him to CP 7, meaning an 80% chance of casting target 10 spells which is fine by me.

[rgtriplec]

Well, I'm looking forward to the upgrade and counterspell and cheaper spells. Thanks to Gus, Clerics stock just skyrocketed.

[Gus Landt]

Name: Holy Symbol

Availability: Models with the Cleric SA

Type: Casting Upgrade

Point Cost: 30

Unique: hmm....

Effect: Model gains +1 CP to Attack Spells and +2 CP to Non-Attack Spells.

Notes: None

Another angle on this...

 

Greater Familiar gives +2 CP (no drawbacks like non-attack spells, arguably a 30+ point value compared to the +2 MAV and +2 RAV items), and +1 MAV (15 point value, arguably less since it often gets wasted on a mage) for 40 points (around a 5 point discount). Why the double standard for the Cleric? Are their attack spells so much more powerful than an Ice Blast, Firestorm, Chain Lightning, or Lightning Blast that they need to be further handicapped? Why not make it all just +2 CP without complications? Or if you are going to go that far, you could very well open the greater familiar to clerics.

 

Just trying not to get stuck behind the old +2 CP to non-attack spells. That was a "free" ability. If the ability is going to get a cost, it may as well be more worthwhile for the point value.

 

Maybe these different options should receive a quick beta before implementation?

 

A few responses

1) Overall, Cleric CPs were raised an average of 1 in the Rage 2007 datacards, knowing we'd be pulling the +2 for friendlies

2) After more testing/feedback, the new Holy Symbol will likely be priced at 25, not 30

3) It was also my (unspoken) intention to lower the cost of many clerical attack spells. They won't be as cheap as mage spells, but the premium won't be so high

4) It was never our intention to make low CP clerics into battle-mages. Clerical attack spells have always been intended for the few select clerics so blessed by their gods that they have high CPs.

 

Thanks to everyone for all the feedback!

[wrightjd]

1) Overall, Cleric CPs were raised an average of 1 in the Rage 2007 datacards, knowing we'd be pulling the +2 for friendlies

2) After more testing/feedback, the new Holy Symbol will likely be priced at 25, not 30

3) It was also my (unspoken) intention to lower the cost of many clerical attack spells. They won't be as cheap as mage spells, but the premium won't be so high

4) It was never our intention to make low CP clerics into battle-mages. Clerical attack spells have always been intended for the few select clerics so blessed by their gods that they have high CPs.

 

Thanks to everyone for all the feedback!

 

Just one more question:

 

Why is there a premium for cleric attack spells, as they're already worse than mage attack spells, and powerful clerics generally have lower CP?