Army Faction Special Abilities Public Beta

[shakhak]

@spiritual_exorcist

I agree that Army of Justice just doesn't stack up with how limited it is. I think my local gamers agree also. I do think the current Deflect + Fearless combo is better than the static DV 10 rule, but it's not enough to make me want to toss Mercy to the curb and use half the models in the faction.

 

I was brainstorming for some of the FAs, and while thinking about the Army of Justice, I came up with this:

Administration of Law - On the field of battle, the Crusader leaders and elites become the judge and jury of their enemy. When a leader or elite is wounded in combat, instead of a defensive strike, they can Judge a single attacker. If Aurellius sees the to be judged as guilty, one of three things can happen.

Target is Good: To align against the light, yet state you stand with it, is worthy of the worst Judgement of all. Target takes 3 Points of damage, is affected by the Disenchant Spell, and becomes shaken(if applicable)

Target is Neutral: There are times that the to be judged, no not what they do, but ignorance is not an excuse. Target takes 2 points of damage and becomes shaken (if applicable).

Target is Evil: Evil must not be allowed to go unjudged. Target takes 2 Points of damage and is affected by the Hold Spell.

To Successfully Judge a target a DIS check is to be made by the Crusader model.(I think opposing checks could work also, kind of like defending your own case to Aurellius) On success, Law is administered as described above.

 

It would need some tweaking/balance, but on paper I think it sounds cool.

[jdripley]

So that's the crusader leader/elite getting damaged... interesting. I like the idea

 

Seems very powerful to do damage and apply affects without a roll versus DV or MD, though.

Maybe it could be "give up #1MA on a defensive strike in an activation in which a leader or elite of the Crusader faction is damaged by close combat to Administer Law." And then you list the spell affect - only, you roll versus DV (just as though you were doing a defensive strike) - a successful roll vs. DV applies the affect.

This would allow any leader or elite to administer law, and it'd allow the Warmaster ones to deal damage as well.

 

And for what it's worth, I like the Hold affect best out of the ones you listed. It's like Aurelius wraps the enemy in chains after the Law has been administered. They have to spend a turn wiggling out of the chains, or get a friendly cleric to dispel the chains. Taking a "character" heavy list would mean the enemy pays dearly for attacking your force, which is definitely awesome. Plenty of flavor, too, as the Army of Justice binds those who oppose the Law.

[spiritual_exorcist]

A bit over the top in my opinion (meaning it's too powerful and doesn't stack up with other abilities), and overly complicated. Just my thoughts.

 

What about Crusader Leaders gaining Innate/4 (Blessing)?

 

THe only problem I see withthis is that a few Crusader leaders lumped together could seriously boost the army (especially since most of them have higher than 4 CPs).

 

Innate/4 (Divine Vigor, or SLow, or Dispel)? Or even a new spell

 

Both Tomukh and Khardullis have this sort of ability so it wouldn't be out of line.

[rcrosby]

@spiritual_exorcist

I agree that Army of Justice just doesn't stack up with how limited it is. I think my local gamers agree also. I do think the current Deflect + Fearless combo is better than the static DV 10 rule, but it's not enough to make me want to toss Mercy to the curb and use half the models in the faction.

I would choose Fearless over Mercy any day with the Crusader armies I intend to field. The Smite(Evil)+1 is a nice counterpoint to not getting the extra Fearless vs Necropolis.

 

Rich

[ecs05norway]

@spiritual_exorcist

I agree that Army of Justice just doesn't stack up with how limited it is. I think my local gamers agree also. I do think the current Deflect + Fearless combo is better than the static DV 10 rule, but it's not enough to make me want to toss Mercy to the curb and use half the models in the faction.

 

I was brainstorming for some of the FAs, and while thinking about the Army of Justice, I came up with this:

Administration of Law - On the field of battle, the Crusader leaders and elites become the judge and jury of their enemy. When a leader or elite is wounded in combat, instead of a defensive strike, they can Judge a single attacker. If Aurellius sees the to be judged as guilty, one of three things can happen.

Target is Good: To align against the light, yet state you stand with it, is worthy of the worst Judgement of all. Target takes 3 Points of damage, is affected by the Disenchant Spell, and becomes shaken(if applicable)

Target is Neutral: There are times that the to be judged, no not what they do, but ignorance is not an excuse. Target takes 2 points of damage and becomes shaken (if applicable).

Target is Evil: Evil must not be allowed to go unjudged. Target takes 2 Points of damage and is affected by the Hold Spell.

To Successfully Judge a target a DIS check is to be made by the Crusader model.(I think opposing checks could work also, kind of like defending your own case to Aurellius) On success, Law is administered as described above.

 

It would need some tweaking/balance, but on paper I think it sounds cool.

 

In-Farking-Sane. I would not even playtest it, I can tell you right now it's ludicrous.

 

You're saying, give up 3 or so defensive strike rolls, in exchange for 2-3 auto-hits plus spell bennies? NFW.

[Sergei]

Going to give it some play testing, but I can already tell I'm going to fell the Sublist of Aurellius is going to need a little bit more umph.

 

:EDIT: And that Jade strike is going to be very, very scary to play against with a melee army.

 

I played a Reptus list yesterady. Jade strikes not too bad. It gives you a little edge but it's not a show stopper. It also fits in really well with the "strong on defense" doctrone that the Reptus have.

[shakhak]

Going to give it some play testing, but I can already tell I'm going to fell the Sublist of Aurellius is going to need a little bit more umph.

 

:EDIT: And that Jade strike is going to be very, very scary to play against with a melee army.

 

I played a Reptus list yesterady. Jade strikes not too bad. It gives you a little edge but it's not a show stopper. It also fits in really well with the "strong on defense" doctrone that the Reptus have.

This is good to hear. I plan on playtesting the Reptus this Tuesday, and giving some new models and this FA a spin.

 

 

On the Topic of the FA I listed:

Everyong who called it too powerful is having a knee jerk reaction. I slapped it together for a faction I don't own, but would be constantly playing against, and I'd say it would need tweaking, but doesn't deserve any kind of Capital lettered criticizm.

 

On Complexity:

It isn't anymore complex than Pain Cage, Lock Shields, or other faction abilities. I'd put it on par with Mercy Complexity. Faction abilties should merely be +1s. Those FAs are a big drawing point for warlord, we all love them, so lets make them unique and fun to use and play against.

And Personally, I'd rather have Complexity that is full of fluff; than a FA that does nothing to help identify my faction or sublist.

 

On Overpowered:

Defensive strikes can be split : This ability is single target only

DS have the opportunity to do more damage : This ability is less damage but garunteed with a spell bonus (I don't object to damage being lowered, but hardly think it would need to be)

The ability only affects a very small number of models in the Crusader's list.

It's also not a garunteed success, but the odds weigh heavily in the Crusaders favor.

Remember that it's also a faction ability. It is in the game to be powerful, useful, and fun.

 

But like I said before, it's far from perfect and has never seen a gaming table, and maybe it never will.

 

 

I like your change to what I listed JDRipley, I liked the hold best also, but felt it was far more powerful than a shaken token so held it back. It fits what you listed very well though.

 

Regardless of what Gus chooses to do, I think a change should be pushed through.

[rgtriplec]

A bit over the top in my opinion (meaning it's too powerful and doesn't stack up with other abilities), and overly complicated. Just my thoughts.

 

What about Crusader Leaders gaining Innate/4 (Blessing)?

 

THe only problem I see withthis is that a few Crusader leaders lumped together could seriously boost the army (especially since most of them have higher than 4 CPs).

 

Innate/4 (Divine Vigor, or SLow, or Dispel)? Or even a new spell

 

Both Tomukh and Khardullis have this sort of ability so it wouldn't be out of line.

 

I think the Crusaders are fine. No one is mentioning that they get free adepts in Gerards troop. I think the ability to field almost nothing but Justicars and Lions or all Lion Lancers is a pretty nice ability. I'd love to field 18 shieldmaidens or a dozen Bears and have Smite/evil, fearless and deflect.

 

Other armies need more help than the Crusaders. The Mercs still need help, as do goblins and grand Reven and elves.

[Vil-hatarn]

Other armies need more help than the Crusaders. The Mercs still need help, as do goblins and grand Reven and elves.

 

I was surprised by the elves' rules...they lost Feathered Sky and had their movement bonuses added to the actual cards (where you have to pay for them), and got nothing in return. The change to sure shot has downsides as well as benefits, so that really doesn't justify it. Take that all with a grain of salt, though, since I haven't tried the new rules yet.

[jdripley]

I think the change to Shadowy is a huge boost to the Elves. During Beta for the new datacards the group I was in found the elven archers to be significantly weaker than crossbow-equipped models. Since the crossbows typically had higher DV they could trade shots all day long and do much more damage to the elves. Giving the elves a +2 DV versus all ranged attacks is crazy good for them. Now, they WILL dominate the ranged aspect of the game. Re-rolling missed attacks, getting heavy cover no matter what.. Sure they're still paper thin in melee, but in their strong suite they are now quite strong, and that's as it should be.

 

At least, that's my impression :D

[Spike]

Hooray for the innate spell/4!!! Warcry just became viable again!!!!

 

My only real gripe with SAs as they stand is the elves' Sure Shot. Around here the elves are cutting down everything on the table like it's a game of Missile Command. In my opinion it would balance the SA much better if it were only given to elven leaders and elites.

 

One thing that has perplexed me ever since the Reven book was written is why You Be Leader and We Come Too are two seperate abilities. Would it not be more concise to state in the wording of You Be Leader that any model promoted to leader becomes Troop ?/?/1 (I forget the current troop numbers for that SA)

 

Thanks for upping support bonus cap to 5 in Noghra. Those little guys reeeally needed the help.

[Vil-hatarn]

I think the change to Shadowy is a huge boost to the Elves. During Beta for the new datacards the group I was in found the elven archers to be significantly weaker than crossbow-equipped models. Since the crossbows typically had higher DV they could trade shots all day long and do much more damage to the elves. Giving the elves a +2 DV versus all ranged attacks is crazy good for them. Now, they WILL dominate the ranged aspect of the game. Re-rolling missed attacks, getting heavy cover no matter what.. Sure they're still paper thin in melee, but in their strong suite they are now quite strong, and that's as it should be.

 

At least, that's my impression :D

 

Well, I guess it gives them some more freedom. I always left my archers in cover anyways, but I overlooked the boost that gives to charging elf infantry...

[Feanor]

At first I was kinda bummed to see how small my elves FAs seemed. Now that I thought about it I realize just how awsome they are reroll ranged attacks killer and what essentialy becomes deflect/2 for everybody just slendid. Another bonus I like is that they short and sweet.

Yeah we lost our laser sights and our free ridge runner/wood strider but well be fine.

[rgtriplec]

I think the change to Shadowy is a huge boost to the Elves. During Beta for the new datacards the group I was in found the elven archers to be significantly weaker than crossbow-equipped models. Since the crossbows typically had higher DV they could trade shots all day long and do much more damage to the elves. Giving the elves a +2 DV versus all ranged attacks is crazy good for them. Now, they WILL dominate the ranged aspect of the game. Re-rolling missed attacks, getting heavy cover no matter what.. Sure they're still paper thin in melee, but in their strong suite they are now quite strong, and that's as it should be.

 

At least, that's my impression :D

 

Range is very over-rated in this game especially now that everything has multiple damage tracks.

 

Look at it like this lets say you are playing the Dwarfs. We'll say you have fifteen archers and they never miss a shot. It will take them until turn four and probably five to kill one dwarf a piece and with most Dwarfs being 40ish points those 15 archers need to dispose of 300 more points to break even and that is never ever having missed a shot. True you could use Marksman, but in a real game using Marksman probably wouldn't give you better odds than never missing a shot like I am. The elf troopers are hard hitting but paper thin. An archery heavy army will never be dominate in the current rules. If elves are so good and shooting is their thing then give them two RA and Sure Shot, them maybe they could be competitive but this game always comes down to the melee. Archery is useful but it is not ever going to be the bread and butter of any army. So, the faction abilities for the elves are at best very weak.

[rgtriplec]

At first I was kinda bummed to see how small my elves FAs seemed. Now that I thought about it I realize just how awsome they are reroll ranged attacks killer and what essentialy becomes deflect/2 for everybody just slendid. Another bonus I like is that they short and sweet.

Yeah we lost our laser sights and our free ridge runner/wood strider but well be fine.

 

You also lost volley and the pieplate and you lost the chance to kill a grunt with one shot. Now it takes you three, four, five, six turns to kill a single model. The re-roll is great but it is a single wound. Elves were nerfed bad with the new rules and archery needs to be re-thought. No one even seems to notice all the grunts get two to five MAs but archers still get one RA. Range is way broken and after the elf archer heavy armies start getting plowed under every game. People will scream foul. This should have been addressed in the beta testing.