Army Faction Special Abilities Public Beta

[Feanor]

People are gonna call me insane for arguing against someone trying to help me but here it goes.

I agree ranged power is overrated. I don't quite believe Spike's missile command statement but I think the elves are plenty good, especially with all the new units we just got. Sure an overly archer heavy force will be smeared, but this is a game of balance. I put two archers in every troop and I took a very respectable 2nd place at our local tourney. Its all about balance with good archery support. My melee guys wrecked a hydra, Gerard, justicars, Logan Battlefury and shadow sisters; not half bad eh? These were all in seperate games but the point here is that I was consistent. Now, with the Shadowy FA I take less hits and end up being in better shape for the fight that is the meat and potatoes of the game.

Time will tell. Lets get a few more games in and see what happens

Cheers

As a side note elves magical abilities are tip top. The arcane blast/storm spells are simply mean.

[spiritual_exorcist]

I actually probably shouldn't complain about the Fearless, I know I was one of those who suggested it when Gus asked me about potential faction abilities for the army of Justice.

 

And Being that Mercy has lost some of it's universal usefulness (only functioning against tough/x model now), I'm slowly becoming convinced that the army of Justice might not be too bad. Deflect/1 is nice, given the nastiness of X-bowmen in the game, and the predominance of archers in some of the armies. And Fearless is pretty cool against alot of models. This sub-faction will rock against the Evil factions that have many Fearsome creatures. Alright...I'm convincing myself, along with your guys help. I still think the ability to choose which faction ability to use just prior to deployment would be the tipping point.

 

'The Wolf' is nice, I agree.

 

As for Elves, as it stands Practice makes perfect is what you make of it. How you build your army dictates how well your faction ability functions. THis is more than some can say, armies like the crusaders and Dwarfs can have mercy and bane largely negated by armies without Tough/X models, Pain Cage becomes alot more limited against low model count armies, as does Vampiric feeding. At the least the Elf factions ability don't depend at all on what your opponent takes and uses, it is equally useful against any army you come up against, which is very very rare in this game, so you should exploit it. If you choose to have fun and take an all melee Elf force that's cool, but it isn't playing to your strengths (it's like a Crusader going Ivy crown archer heavy, doing so negates nearly all the usefulness of his faction ability). Otherwise you'll have to wait for a sub-faction, and there will be one last I heard from Gus.

[rgtriplec]

I agree you need to build for balance. My example is to show that archers in a perfect archery world where they never miss and are never shot back at are still after five turn not going to have killed their points. In fact in this probably 1500 point game they are about to get the bad end of 300 points of Warriors, Swift Axes and Halberds.

 

Lets say the elf force is Eowad, Selwyn, and 3 Meridhs, 10 archers, 14 longthorns. and treebeard That is 2 archers per troop not counting the two leaders with 3 spears.

 

Even with marksman they are only taking 26 shots a round. With a Mav of 4 they are hitting at best 40% against DV 10. So they have ten wounds. Then get 4 more for sure shot. 16 total. You figure with Dwarfs its gonna take you four or five rounds to kill one unless you gang up and shoot at all 26 shots at 4. Even losing four a round I see the dwarfs taking twice that in melee after the first turn and with all the warmasters and first strikes and trenchers and totem. Also once melee begins it really cripples the elf archers unless they have a huge troop of Deathseekers because everyone else is going to get shaken as you try to fire into the melee, which in the long run probably benifits your opponent with the -2 modifier. Dwarfs kill as much or more defensively as they do offensively.

 

If you remember I was one of the very few that was against that really broken scrye shot volley thing. But back then elves were killing a grunt with a single shot. I'm not pro broken range and I think the elves range is fine, but I think that they should benifit in a way that helps the entire army too like by having Ridge Runner and Woods Strider again, which maybe Gus already plans to give that to his animal sub-faction. Time will tell, but I don't see the elves being overly powerful because of archers it will be from speed and striking fast with hordes of melee.

[Steven Page]

I'm running elves. Try Selwyn, plus seven archers; her sister, Selwyn, plus seven archers, and Meridh with a few longthorns in a 1000 point game.

 

When you can, fire two shots, using Marksman. When the other guys get close, "fire and fall back". Use cover liberally.

 

Games against mob armies have looked like the aftermath of "Zulu". Games against cavalry or "big things" have been closer.

 

Don't spread your fire. Put enough shots on your targets to put them down. Shoot the clerics and healers first.

 

All I know, is that it is working too well in my area.

[Storminator]

I agree you need to build for balance. My example is to show that archers in a perfect archery world where they never miss and are never shot back at are still after five turn not going to have killed their points. In fact in this probably 1500 point game they are about to get the bad end of 300 points of Warriors, Swift Axes and Halberds.

 

Lets say the elf force is Eowad, Selwyn, and 3 Meridhs, 10 archers, 14 longthorns. and treebeard That is 2 archers per troop not counting the two leaders with 3 spears.

 

Blah...blah...blah...

 

But remember that dwarves are high DV, high Deflect armies with extra damage tracks. They are pretty much designed to counter elf archery.

 

Look at that same analysis, but against Lesser Orcs. Or Skeletons. Or Bondslaves. Or Broken Fodder.

 

And I think your analysis is a little pessimistic on the elves, as they aren't going to be shooting at DV10s. The first elf will, but the second activation will be hitting DV9s, and if you live thru that, the 3rd activation will be hitting DV8s. I wouldn't expect any Halberdiers or Swift Axes to get to melee, unless you bring Bears, in which case it's the Bears that won't make it...

 

IMX Elves play a lot tougher than they look on paper.

 

PS

[Millerthyme]

At first I was kinda bummed to see how small my elves FAs seemed. Now that I thought about it I realize just how awsome they are reroll ranged attacks killer and what essentialy becomes deflect/2 for everybody just slendid. Another bonus I like is that they short and sweet.

Yeah we lost our laser sights and our free ridge runner/wood strider but well be fine.

 

Shadowy - Models of the Elf Affiliation are considered to be in heavy cover when being attacked.

I ignored the FA since it had the same name as where the Elves treated all cover as heavy. My question is does this only apply to ranged attacks only or for both melee and ranged? Both posts talk about how good it for for our archers and how is it a free "Deflect/2", but its fuzzy if it applies to melee attacks, or maybe I'm not thinking this morning.

[rgtriplec]

At first I was kinda bummed to see how small my elves FAs seemed. Now that I thought about it I realize just how awsome they are reroll ranged attacks killer and what essentialy becomes deflect/2 for everybody just slendid. Another bonus I like is that they short and sweet.

Yeah we lost our laser sights and our free ridge runner/wood strider but well be fine.

 

Shadowy - Models of the Elf Affiliation are considered to be in heavy cover when being attacked.

I ignored the FA since it had the same name as where the Elves treated all cover as heavy. My question is does this only apply to ranged attacks only or for both melee and ranged? Both posts talk about how good it for for our archers and how is it a free "Deflect/2", but its fuzzy if it applies to melee attacks, or maybe I'm not thinking this morning.

 

It give archer heavy cover vs range which is in effect +deflect or +2 to DV against range or -2 for opposing archers MAV, however you want to look at it. I think it is technically called a cover penalty/-2.

 

But remember that dwarves are high DV, high Deflect armies with extra damage tracks. They are pretty much designed to counter elf archery.

 

Look at that same analysis, but against Lesser Orcs. Or Skeletons. Or Bondslaves. Or Broken Fodder.

 

And I think your analysis is a little pessimistic on the elves, as they aren't going to be shooting at DV10s. The first elf will, but the second activation will be hitting DV9s, and if you live thru that, the 3rd activation will be hitting DV8s. I wouldn't expect any Halberdiers or Swift Axes to get to melee, unless you bring Bears, in which case it's the Bears that won't make it...

 

IMX Elves play a lot tougher than they look on paper.

 

PS

 

Using the Dwarfs in my illustraton was kind of a gift on my part, 40 point 10 DV models are better than a 30 point ones from the elves perspective. I didnt choose any high point dwarfs and based everything off a static without deflect. I think using a static 10 for my example is fine considering the elves also will be facing DVs of 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, some with deflect/1-3. A 10 seems pretty reasonable. Sure look at broken fodder they are 20 points, for the 600 you paid in archers I get 30 I don't see you stopping 30 of the little guys they are faster than elves with the improved charge of 4.

[Gus Landt]

OK, I really messed up the wording of 'Shadowy'. The intent is that when elves are in any cover, they treat that cover as Heavy Cover when being attacked by ranged attacks. I'll get the wording updated.

[bobapple]

Am I just missing it or is there no entry for Razig's Revenge in the Faction Special Abilities list?

[rgtriplec]

Am I just missing it or is there no entry for Razig's Revenge in the Faction Special Abilities list?

 

Gus covered that in another thread. I believe the answer was they are not a real faction and were never meant to be any more than they are, thus no faction abilities but they get new models.

 

I personally think they should be absorbed into the mercs as a seperate sub-faction.

 

OK, I really messed up the wording of 'Shadowy'. The intent is that when elves are in any cover, they treat that cover as Heavy Cover when being attacked by ranged attacks. I'll get the wording updated.

 

Most people probably knew it was the same as the old version minus the Woodstrider, Ridgerunner. It was always only for range, as melee does not get cover bonuses.

[shakhak]

@RGTripleC

Watch Eric play a game next time he fields an archer heavy force. You will witness missle command.

I don't care the the elves are bow string happy, but each archer is far more than capable of killing his points worth.

 

The fewer #RA vs more #MA equals out since most archers are hitting 30 solid inches before those #MA even matter.

 

Archers are also not as soft as the used to be, I think even elven archers have a DV 9 now.

 

Archer is not Broken since the revision. It's power has been reduced, but that NEEDED to be done. And everyone has known this since Warlord 1.0

 

 

@Gus Landt

Thanks for clearing that up, I was about to ask why it isn't listed as +2 deflect if those were the intentions, but it sounds like they weren't.

 

 

@Bobapple

Gus said that Razig will NOT be included in the faction abilities update, and won't be treated as a normal Warlord faction.

They are going back to their Online Bonus army roots. And I think Gus said that they will update the Razig PDF soon with the new stats/abilities for them.

[Mengu]

Wow, there is more archer love here than I thought I'd see.

 

I've tried Ivy Crowns and Bull Orc Archers a few times, and neither of them seemed to have any impact. I thought having a few archers for some range support would be handy, but it always turns out for those points, having more warriors is better.

 

I can see that the elven archers with their 30" range and Sure Shot, will be good. Sure shot gives you around a 10%-25% improvement on range attacks, and with the already decent RAV of elves, that's pretty good odds of hitting. I know archers with Critical Shot/X in small groups, such as dwarf crossbowmen and overlord crossbowmen are all quite useful because of a combination of good RAV and 2 points of damage.

 

But I just haven't been able to do anything useful with other archers, so I stopped using them.

[wrightjd]

I'm positing here my concern over the FAs of the army of aurellius; I will be play testing them throughout this week.

[Qwyksilver]

I've had some pretty decent results with the ICA when I have fielded them. I usually only bring a couple and Acacia, and I use them with Marksmen (since I need 10's to hit almost everything anyways, might as well give me more chances at a 10) and use them to try and hit some Mages or Clerics or just go for the Luck shots on the big DV models. Or try for a few lobbed Indirect Shots from behind some of your higher DV models to go for that Hail Mary shot. Even if I am forcing my opponent to waste a Cure or 2 that's forcing them to waste a resource they might rather use later in the game. Or it forces my opponent to try and use their own Models to screen their softer targets, which means they may not be in the exact position they would like to be.

 

And there's always the chance my dice get hot and I get more than one shot and really screw with them.

[rgtriplec]

@RGTripleC

Watch Eric play a game next time he fields an archer heavy force. You will witness missle command.

I don't care the the elves are bow string happy, but each archer is far more than capable of killing his points worth.

 

The fewer #RA vs more #MA equals out since most archers are hitting 30 solid inches before those #MA even matter.

 

Archers are also not as soft as the used to be, I think even elven archers have a DV 9 now.

 

Archer is not Broken since the revision. It's power has been reduced, but that NEEDED to be done. And everyone has known this since Warlord 1.0

 

With multiple damage tracks it takes at least two rounds and maybe four or five for an acher to kill anything on his own. Originally range may have been unfair but in the previous version it was not. Overall I think range is probably fair as it shouldn't be a winning tactic to be all range, so the limits are okay, but a lot of archers are useless. when the elves faction abilities force you to be a ranged army to get a faction bonus then it should be a bonus rivals all the other FAs. Thus the elves should have the ability to be pretty much all range or they need abilities to help their low DV soldiers.

 

The MA vs RA thing matters. Some soldiers can make up for three rounds of range in a single combat, plus melee is getting up to +6 on their MAV with bonuses.

 

I've seen Eric play and his archers don't break the game. There are several adepts that it requires you roll 8+. Most armies have very high dv models that will be very hard to kill with range: Justicars, Lions Lancers, Dwarf Warriors, Shieldmaidens, Bears, Onyx Phalanx, Overlord Warriors, Dark Dwarfs, Blade Sisters, Crimson Knights, Tomb Guards, Trolls, Orgres, Reptus Warriors, Brood, Royal guardsman...