Army Faction Special Abilities Public Beta

[wrightjd]

I've had some pretty decent results with the ICA when I have fielded them. I usually only bring a couple and Acacia, and I use them with Marksmen (since I need 10's to hit almost everything anyways, might as well give me more chances at a 10) and use them to try and hit some Mages or Clerics or just go for the Luck shots on the big DV models. Or try for a few lobbed Indirect Shots from behind some of your higher DV models to go for that Hail Mary shot. Even if I am forcing my opponent to waste a Cure or 2 that's forcing them to waste a resource they might rather use later in the game. Or it forces my opponent to try and use their own Models to screen their softer targets, which means they may not be in the exact position they would like to be.

 

And there's always the chance my dice get hot and I get more than one shot and really screw with them.

 

Agreed with qwyk. Another thing is when you hit a model once or twice and slow them down, it's not rare for the opponent to slow down their troop till that model is healed. That helps hold back the army for you to engage where and when you want to engage, which is always a nice thing.

[Mengu]

I guess you guys must be better at rolling those 10's when you need them, than me. It's not unusual for me to face an army where there isn't a single model I can hit without a 10. And when I'm not rolling them, my 3 archers and Acacia become 173 points of dead weight, that do maybe 1-2 points of damage. That's approximately a Guardian Beast, or an Ironraven and 4 Ironspines that could be tearing stuff down, doing a lot more than 1-2 points.

[rgtriplec]

I guess you guys must be better at rolling those 10's when you need them, than me. It's not unusual for me to face an army where there isn't a single model I can hit without a 10. And when I'm not rolling them, my 3 archers and Acacia become 173 points of dead weight, that do maybe 1-2 points of damage. That's approximately a Guardian Beast, or an Ironraven and 4 Ironspines that could be tearing stuff down, doing a lot more than 1-2 points.

 

I played the Crusaders a couple weeks ago. He had I think 5 archers and the were next to useless. Why put something in a build where its primary function will be to try and roll a ten.

[Storminator]

Using the Dwarfs in my illustraton was kind of a gift on my part, 40 point 10 DV models are better than a 30 point ones from the elves perspective. I didnt choose any high point dwarfs and based everything off a static without deflect. I think using a static 10 for my example is fine considering the elves also will be facing DVs of 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, some with deflect/1-3. A 10 seems pretty reasonable. Sure look at broken fodder they are 20 points, for the 600 you paid in archers I get 30 I don't see you stopping 30 of the little guys they are faster than elves with the improved charge of 4.

 

The elf army you described above should kill 10.5 Broken Fodder models per turn, assuming it doesn't hit any that are wounded (which would increase the kills). So all other things being equal, a few Fodder might live to base some elves, and then again they might not.

 

You keep mentioning how you have to shoot soldiers for 4 or 5 turns, but that's not true of all armies. Plenty of armies have models with fewer tracks.

 

@ Mengu, I did the odds for Elves, and they are just as effective Marksmening targets as Overlord Crossbowmen are at Critshotting, except the Elves have better range, and are significantly better without using the SA.

 

PS

[rcrosby]

@ Mengu, I did the odds for Elves, and they are just as effective Marksmening targets as Overlord Crossbowmen are at Critshotting, except the Elves have better range, and are significantly better without using the SA.

vs DV14 the expected damage is: 0.38 points for a Vale Archer and 0.6 points for an Overlord Crossbowman

vs DV8 the expected damage is: 1.82 points for a Vale Archer and 1.8 points for an Overlord Crossbowman

 

It all depends on the enemy DV. Of course the Vale Archer is much better at move and shoot (but also more expensive!)

 

Rich

[Mengu]

@ Mengu, I did the odds for Elves, and they are just as effective Marksmening targets as Overlord Crossbowmen are at Critshotting, except the Elves have better range, and are significantly better without using the SA.

 

Yes, I know, that's why I kept elves separate. Sure Shot with Marksmen is about as effective as Overlord Crossbowmen. It's actually slightly better when you consider the reliability with which you'll do 1 point of damage which will lower the target's DV for future attacks, in addition to the extra range. However the Elves do pay 11 more points for that.

[rcrosby]

Yes, I know, that's why I kept elves separate. Sure Shot with Marksmen is about as effective as Overlord Crossbowmen. It's actually slightly better when you consider the reliability with which you'll do 1 point of damage which will lower the target's DV for future attacks, in addition to the extra range. However the Elves do pay 11 more points for that.

vs DV14 the chance of doing any damage is: 34.39% for a Vale Archer and 30% for an Overlord Crossbowman

vs DV8 the chance of doing any damage is: 99.19% for a Vale Archer and 90% for an Overlord Crossbowman

 

The main difference is when moving and shooting:

 

vs DV14 the expected damage is: 0.36 points for a Vale Archer and 0.10 points for an Overlord Crossbowman

vs DV8 the expected damage is: 0.96 points for a Vale Archer and 0.70 points for an Overlord Crossbowman

 

I think the main point is that ranged attacks are only effective if you expect your ranged models to have enough low DV targets to shoot at, either models that start with low DVs or models that have been damaged down to low DVs (good way to avoid those Warmaster defensive strikes from an otherwise crippled model!)

 

Rich

[Millerthyme]

@RGTripleC

Watch Eric play a game next time he fields an archer heavy force. You will witness missle command.

I don't care the the elves are bow string happy, but each archer is far more than capable of killing his points worth.

 

The fewer #RA vs more #MA equals out since most archers are hitting 30 solid inches before those #MA even matter.

 

Archers are also not as soft as the used to be, I think even elven archers have a DV 9 now.

 

Archer is not Broken since the revision. It's power has been reduced, but that NEEDED to be done. And everyone has known this since Warlord 1.0

 

With multiple damage tracks it takes at least two rounds and maybe four or five for an acher to kill anything on his own. Originally range may have been unfair but in the previous version it was not. Overall I think range is probably fair as it shouldn't be a winning tactic to be all range, so the limits are okay, but a lot of archers are useless. when the elves faction abilities force you to be a ranged army to get a faction bonus then it should be a bonus rivals all the other FAs. Thus the elves should have the ability to be pretty much all range or they need abilities to help their low DV soldiers.

 

The MA vs RA thing matters. Some soldiers can make up for three rounds of range in a single combat, plus melee is getting up to +6 on their MAV with bonuses.

 

I've seen Eric play and his archers don't break the game. There are several adepts that it requires you roll 8+. Most armies have very high dv models that will be very hard to kill with range: Justicars, Lions Lancers, Dwarf Warriors, Shieldmaidens, Bears, Onyx Phalanx, Overlord Warriors, Dark Dwarfs, Blade Sisters, Crimson Knights, Tomb Guards, Trolls, Orgres, Reptus Warriors, Brood, Royal guardsman...

 

Since my name is being distributed for an archer heavy army, this is the 1500 point army I played Yesterday:

My Army Elves:

Dragon - 2 Arcane Blasts

Hunting Cats (3)

Faery (3)

Archers (3)

Irith

 

Satyr

Longthorns (4)

 

Sniper

 

Selwynn

Rangers (7)

 

This army faced against an Overlords Voice of Kardullis sublist (sp?)

I agree with rgtriplec when he says it's really hard for a ranged unit to kill a model. When taken into consideration who cares about killing a model, the purpose behind an archer heavy army is to hurt as much of the enemies troops before melee starts and to have the enemy use up all their healing. This allows an advantage to the elves b/c they still have more resources they can use.

 

On the other hand though, rgtriplec comments seem non legit because once a troop is hit they are going to get slower and easier to hit with ranged attacks.

[rgtriplec]

The elf army you described above should kill 10.5 Broken Fodder models per turn, assuming it doesn't hit any that are wounded (which would increase the kills). So all other things being equal, a few Fodder might live to base some elves, and then again they might not.

 

You keep mentioning how you have to shoot soldiers for 4 or 5 turns, but that's not true of all armies. Plenty of armies have models with fewer tracks.

 

The army I mentioned with average dice on both their rolls and using Marksman can 16 wounds. That is if they don't perform any other action like moving which they will need to against fodder after turn one. Then there is the choice of firing at the fodder or protecting your army from enemy archers, sniping mages and clerics etcetera. Sure take out eight of the fodder in round one, by round two the fodder are 44" with their charge, so by the second turn the elves should be running which takes their 26 shots to about 12 or five wounds or 3 fodder. The 19 remaining fodder will corral the elves a corner. Now if you are playing on a 4x4 table and the fodder get initiative for the second round first, the fodder could actually double move and charge and base the elves by turn two and at that point there would still be 22 of them.

[wrightjd]

The elf army you described above should kill 10.5 Broken Fodder models per turn, assuming it doesn't hit any that are wounded (which would increase the kills). So all other things being equal, a few Fodder might live to base some elves, and then again they might not.

 

You keep mentioning how you have to shoot soldiers for 4 or 5 turns, but that's not true of all armies. Plenty of armies have models with fewer tracks.

 

The army I mentioned with average dice on both their rolls and using Marksman can 16 wounds. That is if they don't perform any other action like moving which they will need to against fodder after turn one. Then there is the choice of firing at the fodder or protecting your army from enemy archers, sniping mages and clerics etcetera. Sure take out eight of the fodder in round one, by round two the fodder are 44" with their charge, so by the second turn the elves should be running which takes their 26 shots to about 12 or five wounds or 3 fodder. The 19 remaining fodder will corral the elves a corner. Now if you are playing on a 4x4 table and the fodder get initiative for the second round first, the fodder could actually double move and charge and base the elves by turn two and at that point there would still be 22 of them.

 

a.) This is only the boards we play on, which are significantly lacking in terrain because people are terrified of it giving another side an advantage.

b.) Why wouldn't the elves have melee to stop these guys from charging either? Sure an all ranged army may get overrun by dwarves or a horde army or a calvary army, that's where they are weak (though I do suspect you would see very different results than the ones you are claiming above in a game).

c.) if the hoard is starting at the very edge of their deployment area, why wouldn't the elves start at the very back? Which means, even with their miraculous 44" in two rounds, they still fall back to 40" and short of the archers, giving at LEAST two rounds out of melee.

 

Also to note, I haven't seen an army with no ranged win a game yet.

[Storminator]

The elf army you described above should kill 10.5 Broken Fodder models per turn, assuming it doesn't hit any that are wounded (which would increase the kills). So all other things being equal, a few Fodder might live to base some elves, and then again they might not.

 

You keep mentioning how you have to shoot soldiers for 4 or 5 turns, but that's not true of all armies. Plenty of armies have models with fewer tracks.

 

The army I mentioned with average dice on both their rolls and using Marksman can 16 wounds. That is if they don't perform any other action like moving which they will need to against fodder after turn one. Then there is the choice of firing at the fodder or protecting your army from enemy archers, sniping mages and clerics etcetera. Sure take out eight of the fodder in round one, by round two the fodder are 44" with their charge, so by the second turn the elves should be running which takes their 26 shots to about 12 or five wounds or 3 fodder. The 19 remaining fodder will corral the elves a corner. Now if you are playing on a 4x4 table and the fodder get initiative for the second round first, the fodder could actually double move and charge and base the elves by turn two and at that point there would still be 22 of them.

 

The army you suggested would do 16 hits will actually do 21 hits against the Fodder (lower DV), which drops 10 of them, and wounds another. Then the Fodder base... the Longthorns... and can't attack. Then 11 more Fodder die to the elves the next round. At this point there are 9 Fodder, all based, and the elf archers haven't taken a lick.

 

:shrug: You obviously think elves are useless. I obviously disagree.

 

PS

[spiritual_exorcist]

From what I can tell, archers do more than just kill models in the game new, they control the flow of the game, and they soften up targets for your melee models. Most players will at very least pay attention to your archers, either trying to remove them, or trying to avoid them. Many models in the game don't kill their points worth, but are still useful, As always, certain builds will function better against archer heavy forces than others, but Elf forces are still the best ranged models in the game (despite X-bowmen with critical shot I still the like the Elves the best).

 

You now have a 21 point Faun grunt you can use as speed bumps to hold up your opponent, that might be worth trying.

[shakhak]

...snip...

 

:shrug: You obviously think elves are useless. I obviously disagree.

 

PS

 

I saw a game where the elves were useless last week... It was an elven melee based faction against a Crusader melee faction :)

[Darthiir]

i honestly haven't been able to get enough games in with the new cards to form a "real" opinion on how my elven archers have changed. i agree with storm, on soft targets (models with DVs of 10 or less) the elves are going to chew threw them from range and those that are left to attack the elven melee models are going to be severely depleted and damaged. against hard targets (models with DVs above 10) the elves are going to have a harder go of it. their shots aren't going to be doing as much damage and when the enemy does get to the melee troops the elves tend to die a more quickly.

 

brining a model for the sole purpose of tying up the enemy and dying, to me in not tactically sound. it worked in the old system because the elves could shoot into melee without having to roll DIS checks to become shaken. . .with that part of our FA gone, i no longer consider it viable. the elves should be allowed to shoot into melee.

[Darthiir]

And now it's time for crazy talk. . .

 

 

proposed elf FA: allow the elf archers to use their RAV while engaged in melee.