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spiritual_exorcist

Flyers

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Currently Brushmaster is experiencing a problem our local Reptus player, as I expect to be playing games at our local club again I want to pose the following situation:

 

The Reptus player in question is using Gaan-Hor models, and placing them around a model he wants to protect. He keeps these models flying in the air, while the model being protected in on the ground. Based on the following wording on page 58 of the rulebook, it seems that the Gaan-Hor models in the air, can prevent the model on the ground from being attacked:

Movement may be conducted through the base of a Burrowed or Flying model. For clarity and to prevent confusion on the tabletop, no model can end its movement in base-to-base contact with a Burrowed or flying model.

 

As such flyer and burrowers bases can effectively block off certain areas of the battlefield, and prevent you from basing enemy models by closely surrounding them. THis is pretty clearly not the intent of the rules, and is a loophole. Has this ever been addressed? I would suggest flyers or burrowers be moved out of the way in this situation accommodate this sort of action. But I'd like something more concrete.

 

To be honest, if a player tried to pull a stunt like that on me, I'd pack up my things, because a player exploiting something as non-sense as that generally isn't someone worth trying to have an enjoyable game with.

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You already addressed this situation, and Gus already answered it four days ago.

 

There isn't a definitive fix, although using a marker for the flyer in those few instances when a Model would be occupying the same space would make sense. Use a cut out on a sheet of paper the same size as the flyer or burrowed Model's base to represent the flying or burrowed critter.

Edited by Qwyksilver

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Since we all know (or should) the intent of the rule, we're looking at a problem here that is based on the wording of the rule. Gus admitted that he and EE had started working on alternatives, but hadn't found any satisfactory ones.

 

I, for one, would like to see a definitive fix for it to be included in RC2008 - either to the rule or the wording. It's one of those little exploit things that causes arguments, particularly where rules lawyers who don't care about the intent are involved. I don't think it needs to be fixed so much from the standpoint that it's a major problem, but from the standpoint that if we can put our heads together and find a graceful and seamless way to fix it, Warlord and it's reputation will be so much the better for it. Someone exploiting the wording isn't doing any favors for Warlord, and I'd like to see the door slammed in their face.

 

I have a couple ideas in mind for changes to wording and/or the rule, but I actually want to try them out, first, before I post anything.

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It sounds like you have a 40K Tau player - they have pretty much the same rule exploit with thier tanks.

 

An easy, chap solution (barring good sportsmanship on the part of the player of the flying models) is colored golf tees. Pick up the min and put a golf tee standing there to show where the figure was. Its small enough that it probably won't interfere with bases, or sit could just sit on them.

 

[EDIT] Our group is making flat bases with pictures of our minis on them for stunned models. I would probably use these for indicating the location of flying/burrowing models so as not to confuse the other players. Poker chips or something similar could work for others.[/EDIT]

 

I agree with Spiritual Exorcist though, if someone pulled that in a game with me, I would just leave, it is not going to be worth the hassle to play the game.

Edited by T'Sarith DeGaalth

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I agree with Spiritual Exorcist though, if someone pulled that in a game with me, I would just leave, it is not going to be worth the hassle to play the game.

 

That's a personally satisfying choice, but a better rule is needed.

 

I would treat the flying models exactly like stunned models that are in the way. The player moving into B2B gets to move the flyer far enough out of the way to base the model he wants, but no farther.

 

PS

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I would treat the flying models exactly like stunned models that are in the way. The player moving into B2B gets to move the flyer far enough out of the way to base the model he wants, but no farther.

This is the solution I would prefer too. But friendly models should not be able to move the flying model. Otherwise, you could surf a Giant base flying model 5-10 inches before it even activates.

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Hadn't realised Gus had addressed this in the other thread, I've not been on the forum much the last week with RL getting in the way.

 

It's at least been acknowledged that such behavior is poor sportsmanship, and clearly not the rules intent.

 

Thanks (moving the flying out of the way in the same way as you would a stunned model gets my vote).

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I would treat the flying models exactly like stunned models that are in the way. The player moving into B2B gets to move the flyer far enough out of the way to base the model he wants, but no farther.

This is the solution I would prefer too. But friendly models should not be able to move the flying model. Otherwise, you could surf a Giant base flying model 5-10 inches before it even activates.

 

Agreed.

 

PS

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I would treat the flying models exactly like stunned models that are in the way. The player moving into B2B gets to move the flyer far enough out of the way to base the model he wants, but no farther.

This is the solution I would prefer too. But friendly models should not be able to move the flying model. Otherwise, you could surf a Giant base flying model 5-10 inches before it even activates.

 

Agreed.

 

PS

 

I have been playing the Necropolis and have saw the potenital with the grave horror during a game to exploit this rule. As well as realizing that Darkspawn could use the burrowing spawn to block off their archers. I did not do it for I too realize that it would be too cheesy, but explained the problem to the rule referee after the game. I must point out that ground plane use figures to protect their valuable cleric or mage by surrounding them. But at least one can attack those protectors. My suggestion to this problem is to give the option to the burrowing or flying creature that is protecting a another piece is a free action to land or surface to the ground plane at their spot or be displaced. That would allow the flying creature to swoop in and cutoff a charging opponent since it was their space to begin with. Espicially if they did not realize that their position created a problem.

 

Another choice would be played out in 3 planes. Burrowers and flyers can attack any space even if ground forces are surrounding an opponent. Representing them by chips. Then ground forces can occupy their space if they are not on ground plane. This would be more realistic as hands bursting from the ground and talons are swopping from the air. The big problem with this is the confusion created by the numerous burrowing and flying creatures present. A space could be occupied by multiple underground, above ground and air units. For this reason I think the first suggestion is more appropriate. What do you guys think.

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I would treat the flying models exactly like stunned models that are in the way. The player moving into B2B gets to move the flyer far enough out of the way to base the model he wants, but no farther.

This is the solution I would prefer too. But friendly models should not be able to move the flying model. Otherwise, you could surf a Giant base flying model 5-10 inches before it even activates.

 

 

Easy to fix.

 

If the movement of one of my models pushes the flier, then my opponent gets to reposition the flyer. If the movement of one of my opponent's models pushes the flier, then I get to reposition the flyer.

 

-StV.

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I just had a wonderment: How cost effective is it to use fliers in this way? If they're completely blocking your ability to base the model(s) in question, they're using at least 4 models. Perhaps less if terrain helps to block the path - but if that's the case, you can just move away so that the model is out of the engagement.

 

Solutions: Shoot the target with arrows and shoot the target with magic. The fliers do not block LOS, no doubt to their advantage - but to your advantage as well. While he's got his fancy-pants fliers doing guard duty around his special model (which I assume is a mage of some sort) use an archer or your own mage to shoot him. Remember that you can screen your mage/archer with troops on the ground to guard against a potential counter charge from the Gaan-Hor's.

 

Maybe you don't have ranged models in your force - that's your choice, and it's true that no force must have archers and casters, but it is a generally good idea to have a variety of attack options in your army. An all melee, maxed out grunt list may be pretty efficient in many situations, but it's a one trick pony and if you use that approach you WILL find situations that you can't overcome, simply because your force isn't flexible enough.

 

And of course remember to deal swift justice to this player's ground forces - they're trying up quite a few points to screen their one model, meaning they're probably pretty light on the field otherwise. Hit 'em hard where you can.

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It's a moot point, this has been ruled on already. It's cheesy, it makes not sense, and whether you invest the points or not, it isn't legal so whether it is cost effective or not is no longer an issue.

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You came up with this idea in june? After playing WL for at least a year and hell lot of games?

Damn, I came with that idea during an intro game last sunday, which was maybe ~20th WL game in my life.

I feel sorry and stupid for playing that trick, though. I knew there was something "wrong" with it on "sport" level. Seems too much of Warhammer background, where "rules as written" are above and beyond any "spirit of the game" and other "fluff mumbling" (as it's sometimes called with disrespect) :huh:

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The simplest solution would be to remove the rule regarding flyers/burrowers occupying the same space as grounded models. I suspect that for most players, the desire to avoid a cluttered tabletop will either cause them to fly/burrow only in spaces unoccupied by grounded models or to come up with a valid solution (such as the base markers Qwyk suggested). Perhaps the use of place-markers could even be included in future text.

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Guys, why don't we table this discussion for now. I'm going to bounce this up the food chain and see if they have an official fix for this yet...

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