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Anyone know anything about this from CMON?


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Let's wade a little deeper shall we?

 

In case any of you have not read the terms of use for CMON (like myself until just now) here ye go!

 

18. You give us a non-exclusive, worldwide, royalty-free, irrevocable, sublicenseable (through multiple tiers) license to exercise all copyright and publicity rights, in any existing or future media, known or unknown, over the material or User Data submitted by you. For the purpose of this Agreement, "User Data" shall mean all information (if any) submitted by You, (the "User") to CoolMiniOrNot with the exception of trading data, credit card numbers, checking account numbers, etc.

Well - this would seemingly cover it - but I would argue that the intended use of the information is being violated - hence nullifying portion 18 of the argeement. See below:

 

Regardless of this clause - the act itself just seems worse the more I think about it...

 

19. No Resale or Unauthorized Commercial Use. You agree not to resell or assign Your rights or obligations under these Terms of Participation. You also agree not to make any unauthorized commercial use of the Service.

 

Just listed for the sake of completeness...

 

20. Ownership of information. By submitting material to CoolMiniOrNot, you represent that you are the owner of such material, or are making your submission with the express consent of the owner. Submitting material that is the property of another, without the consent of its owner, is not only a violation of these Terms, but may also subject you to legal liability for infringement of copyright, trademark or other intellectual property rights.

 

Especially since posting on CMON essentially seems to remove your implicit ownership of the IP from section 18.

 

CoolMiniOrNot Copyright Policy

 

CoolMiniOrNot is a communication system for people to submit a link or a photograph for others to rate. CoolMiniOrNot users decide what content to make available to others using the system. Users are responsible for complying with all applicable federal and state laws applicable to such content, including copyright laws.

 

CoolMiniOrNot respects copyright law and expects our users to do the same. Unauthorized copying, distribution, modification, public display, or public performance of copyrighted works is an infringement of the copyright holders' rights. You should be aware that some image files may have been created or distributed without copyright owner authorization. As a condition to your use of the CoolMiniOrNot sytem, you agree that you will not use the CoolMiniOrNot service to infringe the intellectual property rights of others in any way.

 

In accordance with the Digital Millennium Copyright Act of 1998 (the text of which may be found on the U.S. Copyright Office web site at http://lcweb.loc.gov/copyright/), CoolMiniOrNot will respond expeditiously to claims of copyright infringement committed using the CoolMiniOrNot service. If you are a copyright owner, or authorized to act on behalf of an owner of the copyright or of any exclusive right under the copyright, please report your notice of infringement by contacting CoolMiniOrNot through our contact page.

 

See - the stated purpose of CMON is to rate items - not aggregate information for the profit of CMON.

 

Anybody listed in the book care to weigh in on this?

 

Am I tilting at windmills here?

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I'm not one of the authors of the book, but here's what I know for what it's worth.

 

The contents of the book are the same as those in the Articles section on CMON. The articles have been reformatted into a PDF, so the formatting is much nicer for printing and browsing, and is more easily searchable, but there's nothing in the book that isn't on the site at this time. Flynn is correct about where the impetus for this idea came from, and that it came about at the request of many members of the CMON community.

 

Compiling and formatting the book took some time and effort, and money is involved in hosting the original articles, so I'm personally okay with CMON earning a small fee from it, particularly since my assumption is most of that will likely go back into paying for bandwidth and the like. My understanding is that anything posted on CMON remains copyright to and owned by its author, but in agreeing to the TOS users are also agreeing to allow CMON rights to use it, which seems reasonable to me. It's been stated that authors were notified by email about the intent to create the book and include their works in it some time prior to the release of the book.

 

To my knowledge, two authors have objected. Neither were native English speakers. Chern Ann (head admin of CMON) replied to one of them that he had sent notifications and received an okay in return via an intermediary translator. There's a bit in this thread here of that exchange, but my guess is it went to private email after this. A non-author user brought up some of these issues in another thread and Chern Ann addressed some of them.

 

As far as video painting instruction, there are a few options out there in addition to the painting wizard, I talked about the ones I've seen in another post. There's also some tutorials available at http://www.steeldog.biz, and you can look at clips from these on YouTube.

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If you check this thread in Reaper General, you'd find some minor teasers from Kit about possible, future, online classes or something coming Soon™ from Reaper.

 

 

I remember coming across at least one video clip online somewhere a few years ago... let check my memory banks...

 

 

Ah yes here it is, only had to get through one false memory Blending Video.

 

I'm sure there are others out there. Somewhere.

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And Wren - seeing as you bought it... [Eric Idle Voice] What's it like?[/E.I Voice]

 

I like the formatting a lot better than the way they're formatted on CMON, seems much cleaner and less cluttered. I haven't printed anything out yet, but as it's in PDF page format I don't see why it wouldn't work better than a lot of the articles print out direct from the site, which sometimes doesn't even work in landscape. I doubt I'll be printing the whole of it out any time soon - for fun I checked out much it would cost to do that through Kinko's online, and the price tag was around $360! I'm sure the searchability will be quite handy. There's many a time when I can remember having read a tutorial but can't find it. If I can do a quick search of all the CMON stuff and figure out whether it's there or not, that'll narrow down trying to find things quite a bit I imagine.

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<<Let's wade a little deeper shall we?

 

In case any of you have not read the terms of use for CMON (like myself until just now) here ye go!

 

QUOTE

18. You give us a non-exclusive, worldwide, royalty-free, irrevocable, sublicenseable (through multiple tiers) license to exercise all copyright and publicity rights, in any existing or future media, known or unknown, over the material or User Data submitted by you. For the purpose of this Agreement, "User Data" shall mean all information (if any) submitted by You, (the "User") to CoolMiniOrNot with the exception of trading data, credit card numbers, checking account numbers, etc.

 

Well - this would seemingly cover it - but I would argue that the intended use of the information is being violated - hence nullifying portion 18 of the argeement.>>

 

 

FYI. CMON revamped that section of the TOS and announced it just a few days before announcing the sale of the pdf book.

 

Maya~

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Am I tilting at windmills here?

I whole heartedly appreciate time you've taken, and the research you've done in this matter.

 

FYI. CMON revamped that section of the TOS and announced it just a few days before announcing the sale of the pdf book.

That's a pretty good bait and switch!? ::D:

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As far as video painting instruction, there are a few options out there in addition to the painting wizard, I talked about the ones I've seen in another post. There's also some tutorials available at http://www.steeldog.biz, and you can look at clips from these on YouTube.

 

Awesome Wren! That's definitely more constructive than my 2-bit review was! :down:

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FYI. CMON revamped that section of the TOS and announced it just a few days before announcing the sale of the pdf book.

 

Maya~

 

Yes - I caught that as well... Chern Ann seems to be playing fast and loose in my opinion. The new TOS would (I recon) only apply to material posted after it was changed, or by implicit consent by the contributors. Now - they will probably have that covered off by having you agree to the new terms when you log in... But again - it seems to me that the folks at CMON where getting upset that someone (or some people) were getting to profit from their work - so they decided to finish it once and for all by doing the same thing. I am also wondering how someone could agree to grant permission through a third party translator - especially since they got upset that their work was used (also from the threads at CMON). If they didn't know fully what was happening... Idunno - this seems a bit underhanded to me... Especially since Chern Ann goes on in the blogs to state that CMON was never stated to be a non-profit entity... Essentially sounding a wee bit greedy when I read it...

 

I would be really interested to hear what the people who are listed in the book have to say about it...

 

Slop_Artist... It took no time at all - and really I am waaaaay to concerned about something that will have virtually no impact on me one way or the other (with the exception of making a blacklist over at CMON).

 

Now, if I was at a calibre where one of my WIPs or what have you where to be worthy of making such a book - I'd probably allow it - mostly for the cache of saying that some of my work was in the 'Master Compendium' of this craft... So perhaps I should re-read Aesop's fables once again (the Fox and the Grapes) and re-think my motives... <_<

 

Nah - I'm gonna put a stick in the ground and say that the way this seemingly was rolled out was not the most ethical thing in the world - and although nobody may be complaining about it (save a couple of French artists), it doesn't mean that there was nothing wrong with CMONs business practices...

 

Case in point - One of the reasons that Reaper hasn't published a book - if memory serves - is that the whole copyright/royalties/ownership etc is a nightmare to do properly... Another reason why Reaper is supercalifragalistic. They do things right... Oh Reaper... Don't ever change. Except maybe get bigger and open a Canadian plant... maybe someplace that has experience in working with metals... in the heart of the country... with convenient shipping to the northeast and central US... (please-o-please-o-please :rolleyes: )

 

Now then - we need someone to say - "if you don't like it don't use CMON, and don't buy the book" - and then I can "that's not the point - when this kind of behavior is ignored we end up with a lack of really cool WIPs and help in the community" - and they can say - "But it's just one site" - and I'll say "but it's the second best place to get information*" and they'll say "they don't see a problem with it" and I'll say "don't you see - Soylent Green is people!!!!"

 

:huh: Wait... what?

 

 

*Free cookie for whomever can name the bestestestest place in the whole wide interweb for help and advice!

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Now then - we need someone to say - "if you don't like it don't use CMON, and don't buy the book" - and then I can "that's not the point - when this kind of behavior is ignored we end up with a lack of really cool WIPs and help in the community" ...

*Slap On My "Rant Hat" Before Lockdown Here At The Funny Farm*

 

(I'll try to stay on topic as much as possible, and use forums generally in place of "any shared information")

 

From my experience, the open source movement has spread everywhere, covering science, math, law, and even art (yes, it may have originated with art, but this is not my point). I have absolutely no problem giving credit where it is due, but from my personal experience I have been rooked. I know that it is extremely hard to say "No huh! That's mine!" once it's "out there". Copyright laws be damned.

 

The general free flow of information here, in this industry, is incredibly sensitive. Here you have painting styles and techniques that serve at this point to bolster the industry. Anyone not wanting a specific manufacture’s mini, or not wanting to paint a mini as the manufacturer suggests, then may need forums or some other form if interaction for help.

 

This is not to say forums are perfect. Many times I will bite my lip as not to offend by correcting. Some times I do offend unintentionally. There are even times I don't even know what the hell I'm talking about and blame it on the Tequila. However the fact remains that the more complex the miniature, inevitably the more complex the technique needed to make it decent. Does little Billy (age 45) play Warlord with miniatures he painted with a paintball gun, or does he paint them right? How does he know what "right" is? Does he cringe at the horror of his work? Do his competitors? Does Reaper?

 

A symbiotic relationship exists. Miniatures need painting. Painters need to paint miniatures. This is it folks.

 

How better to help each other out than forums? The forums provide (mostly) the information needed, and life is good for the reader, but what happens if CMON would be sued? If the plaintiff loses, who can trust the forums? (The big bad forums are stealing and selling ideas that are freely given to the public.) If the plaintiff wins, restrictive measures would be taken. (Our forum community runs our business, but how can we administrate it?)

 

Either way - the forums, little Billy, Sophie, that nice man that works at the craft store and smells like cheese - all take it in the shorts and the momentum of the industry is lost and the business becomes nothing more than a stale donut - no one wants to throw it out, but no one wants to eat it either.

 

 

With software and code, there is a GPL. Would this concept escalate so that the forum communities would have to initiate or "sign" releases as well? Sit back and consider that administrative process. Games Workshop is strait forward in essence saying "Anything (pictures, miniatures, ideas, tips) submitted are the full property of Games Workshop". On this topic, and in this environment, is this reasonable?

 

This is the heart of my rant; the pearl of my complaint: Who in their right (or left) mind would consider trying to administrate a hobby or an art form?

 

The artistically minded people, especially those that paint just to paint, are deep and passionate and do their thing because they are driven or insane. Who should chain them for "the good of all"? From direct experience, a little law goes a long way. From these experiences, here are three examples that are not that far fetched:

  • Example 1: Little Billy releases his figure painted Red and White, with a Maple leaf. Does his copyright cover the paintjob itself, the techniques used, the inspiration of the piece, the aesthetic appeal of the work, its moral value, or can you use the colors without giving him credit? A wash is a wash, but who's intellectual property is it?
     
    Example 2: Should a copyright notice be displayed with a painted miniature giving full credit to the manufacturing company, only with their legal permission, and also the artist that first sculpted the piece? Can competitor's paints be used?
     
    Example 3: No mods. No Conversions. No Exceptions.

It is possible that CMON is out on a limb that threatens themselves, the mini buyers, and the mini sellers. With companies this may not bode well. I do not believe CMON did anything unethical or immoral, but I am not everyone. (Note though, in this pdf - due credit is given.) With judgment comes precedence, and with precedence comes policy changes. CMON, for whatever the motivation, opened a door that was probably not their intention. Be that as it may, if this turns ugly then ends badly, if people take this too seriously, if this becomes a real "issue", then everyone is affected.

 

If nothing happens, then this could serve as a warning shot and help everyone get their ducks in a row.

 

*Takes Off My "Rant Hat" - Puts on My Strait Jacket*

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