D&D 4E seems to be looming ahead.

[dyelan]

I don't expect constant updates, that's why I did not say that. I did expect an x.5 update, much the way Reaper has done with Warlord. Also, I don't appreciate a bait and switch, by posting an update book that's not really an update book.

 

Anthony

 

If you're just complaining that WotC didn't make a nice, simple, easy-to-read booklet with all of the changes listed clearly in black-and-white for you, fine, I can understand that, but I see little substance in that argument given the existence of the SRD which contains nearly all of the rules anyway.

 

My main problem is the changes from 3.0 to 3.5 were rules tweaks. WotC even stated the tweaks were based on feedback from the masses. I will never support a company that expects me to re-buy all the same books again because they tweaked the rules a few years after the original "play-tested" version. A simple fix would have been something along the lines of a Rage Chronicles. That is what the "update booklet" was supposed to be. It was not. I cannot take the 3.5 SRD and update my 3.0 books. I cannot take the "update booklet" and combine it with my 3.0 PHB to get 3.5. I have to re-buy all the 3.5 books.

 

Now if WotC went from 3.0 to a free 3.5 update pdf with a print version available. Then, from 3.5 to a new edition of 4.0 in the same 8 year timeframe, it's all good. While I understand WotC has to "eat", they don't have to eat filet mignon every night.

 

Anthony

[Madog Barfog]

Errata are fixes to mistakes that never should have been made, and should always be free. 3.5 was far more than errata.

 

3.5 had numerous changes from 3.0. For instance, some of the spells didn't work the same, and other fundamental rules were changed. From what I've seen, the game became even more Monty Haul than before.

 

Basically, WotC wanted to sell a new set of books without the uproar of releasing a new version. You can argue you didn't have to buy the 3.5 books, but unless everyone in your group stuck with 3.0, and you never cared to go to a con or FLGS for a pickup game, you were going to have an awkward time playing with outdated books.

[Deguello]

You can think what you want but if you have 3.0 and you wanted to go to 3.5 you had to buy the books..

 

Don't post links for errata for each versions and say here it is, because clearly its not. BTW no conspiracy here.. IT's pretty much a historical event. Lets not just leave it to the players

Lets take it to publishers.

 

As a slam dunk point Monsters began disappearing out of the OGL when the had been present in previous version and after subscribers were sending to print

books using those items.. Perfectly within thier right to do so...Ethically... OI.... If I were a publisher I would take notice and believe me several did..

Kenzer Co never converted to 3.5; Paradigm Concepts tried to convert, released several books and then developed thier own rules. Green Ronin, The premier publishing co around

Cooled thier efforts on d20 and released WHFRPG 2nd For the Evil empire Mutants and Master minds and True 20. I think Very few will try to publish under the OGL in the future..

Goodman games does classic adventures under them and Xcrawl...and I think that's what you will see in the future one shots using the rules but throwing a campaign into the grinder that's going to significantly change

and require the campaign to change.. I think not..

 

and if you think that this isn't about market share and money...and truly think it is about providing a better game.. Please show some facts to support that

The changes made could have been released as erratum in 60 pages or less, but instead was released a 3 256 page books oooh at 30 dollars a pop... instead of 20

Thats right a 50% raise in price after only three years..

 

Do you feel like a fish on a line now?

Reelin you in one more time because they decided after four years to re-bait the hook.

 

It's ok Some people like d20, They like being able to sit down at a table in any campaign and essentially know the rules. (Market share)

The have the disposable income to afford rebuying books.

And they enjoy the game...

I enjoy roleplaying... Which I think the d20 rules are moving farther and farther away from.

I think thier are a host of companies that do it better and cheaper than WOTC..

 

Market share will be hard to overcome..for most publishers. but I theink the winds are changing against Wotc already...

[Mourningcloud]

As if I needed another reason to stay at 2nd Ed. I didn't buy into 3.0 until finding a bargain-bin PHB & DMG, just to see what all the fuss was about. Very soon I found the reason for their placement in the bin; 3.5 was announced. Just as I start looking at 3.5 locally, thinking if 3.5 is the only thing to play in this area, it's better than not playing at all. Nope, didn't even get that far and here we go again. At least this time I didn't waste any time or money on books or minis.

 

Fuggedabout it...I'm reopening my classic Greyhawk 2nd Edition campaign.

 

Funny you should say that. Last night my paladin witnessed Lord Robilar and Rary the Traitor square off against Lady Karistayne (paladin 17 of Heironeous) and Tenser the archmage in the Darkbridge temple (which turns out has a connection with the imprisonment of Tharizdun) in the middle of the Bright Desert, at the conclusion of the Blight on the Bright Sands story arc of the RPGA's living greyhawk camplaign.

 

SHame I didn;t encounter you earlier on the reaper board; I would have sucked you into the best ongoing campaig currently in existence.

 

Greyhawk is alive and kicking in 3.5, it has been since 2000. There are currently 20,000+ people worldwide playing in Gygax's beloved Flanaess, all using the exact same rules. I have gamed with excellent players (both roll- and role-) from Canada, Britain, Australia, and all over the US.

 

The best part is I can take my character, walk up to a living greyhawk table anywhere in the world, and be ready to play at a moments notice without having to make any changes.

 

No ridiculous home game quirks to deal with such as "oh, we play a modified 3.5 where we still use the thaco method for attacks, and we allow the demi-human multiclasses from 1st edition, which our DM has lovingly converted to 3.5; let me spend the next hour and a half describing to you how it works (sounds of me gagging heard in the background)", or even better, "sorry-we dont allow half orcs into our game, but you couldnt play him anyway because paladins are not allowed to start with a level of monk, just because our DM said so".

 

As I said, A shame because it was announced they are ending the current living greyhawk campaign at the end of 2008, and starting a new living forgotten realms game using the new 4ed rules. In fact, most of us who play Living Greyhawk are still in shock. We expected this campaign to go until around 2010.

 

 

Anyhoo, nice to meet a fellow 'Hawker.

 

Gary, who's characters first terrorized the Flanaess in 1985.

[Cadaver]

Do you feel like a fish on a line now?

Reelin you in one more time because they decided after four years to re-bait the hook.

Nope, because I never bought 3.5, I bought 3.0 and worked with the errata sheets online.

If I missed any new rules or clarifications, it didn't mess up any of my games, but then again I run my own world.

I don't buy pre-written adventures. Those are for cheaters.

 

I enjoy roleplaying... Which I think the d20 rules are moving farther and farther away from.

I think thier are a host of companies that do it better and cheaper than WOTC..

 

I see this as determined by the DM and the players themselves, not by the mechanics of the game.

[Madog Barfog]

it was announced they are ending the current living greyhawk campaign at the end of 2008, and starting a new living forgotten realms game using the new 4ed rules. In fact, most of us who play Living Greyhawk are still in shock. We expected this campaign to go until around 2010.

 

You're in shock that WotC is forcing their official games to 4E?

 

I don't even think you could slam WotC for that. Any publisher would convert everything over to their new version.

[Madog Barfog]

Ok, can someone please explain to me WHY y'all were so unhappy with 3.5?

 

There is no relationship between 3E and original D&D, or OAD&D for that matter. Different games, style, and spirit.

 

For someone who has never played 1/2e, HackMaster, or any other old school style game, picking one up now would seem strange. Leveling takes training, it's not all about stacking bonuses, leveling up happens more slowly - basically, it's a lot less like a video game than the current version is.

 

D&D was out for a few years before AD&D hit, and even that was before the original Nintendo, let alone PC games. TSR never felt the need to compete with the speed and munchkinism of video games. WotC has a *very* different take on the system. Not only is it more munchkin, with no restrictions on race, class, or leveling (I suddenly want thief abilities *poof*!), but the artwork has driven the flavor further from its historical wargame roots. It's much more like a comic book now.

 

In old school games, the GM was there to make sure the players were challenged. In 3E, they are there to make sure the players are rewarded.

[Tannhauser]

and if you think that this isn't about market share and money...and truly think it is about providing a better game.. Please show some facts to support that

The changes made could have been released as erratum in 60 pages or less, but instead was released a 3 256 page books oooh at 30 dollars a pop... instead of 20

 

Facts, eh?

Ok, here is a fact for you.

It's called the System Reference Document, which is far more than 60 pages, freely available, and contains not just the changed rules, but damn near ALL of the rules.

Did you even click on any of the links I posted, much less read what is in them?

[Ishil]

D&D was out for a few years before AD&D hit, and even that was before the original Nintendo, let alone PC games. TSR never felt the need to compete with the speed and munchkinism of video games. WotC has a *very* different take on the system. Not only is it more munchkin, with no restrictions on race, class, or leveling (I suddenly want thief abilities *poof*!), but the artwork has driven the flavor further from its historical wargame roots. It's much more like a comic book now.

 

In old school games, the GM was there to make sure the players were challenged. In 3E, they are there to make sure the players are rewarded.

Well now, I think that's just nonsense. The GM runs his game any way he wants, with as much or as little challenge as he wants, and that hasn't changed. In fact, in my experience there was worse GMing during the time of earlier editions than there is now.

As for the other thing, 'comic book' D&D, different strokes for different folks. Yes, there are far fewer restrictions - something usually regarded as a good thing! It means you can choose what your character will be like, instead of being straitjacketed all the time.

 

Ishil

[Rastl]

We have a hard enough time dragging out GM out of the 2.0 rules into the 3.x rules.

 

Hearing that 4.0 is going to drastically change how things are done does not fill me with confidence.

 

WotC/Hasbro is used to doing planned obsolescence when they make a game. Their intent is not to 'keep the game fresh' or 'listen to the players' but to 'keep them buying our stuff'. Period. Look at any of the games they put out and say that ain't so.

 

We'll probably stay with the 3.x rules because there's plenty of material there for a creative group of people to use and keep their campaigns going.

 

But completely invalidating everything that went before (in expensive hardcover, btw) and expecting the public to blithely follow along is just folly. Arrogant folly.

 

Yeah, I'm kind of bitter. I don't want my games to collapse over rule splits.

[Spike]

AMEN RASTL!

 

Around here, we played 2.0 for a darn long time until one of our players bought the 3.0 books and convinced us to have a try at it. Though I do not find THACO to be terribly complicated either, it IS an unnecessary complication of what should be a simple mathematical process. For lack of better analogy, THACO is like counting one's sheep by totalling up their ears and dividing by two.

 

We upgraded to 3.0 eventually, and I was happy with it. Actually I am still happy with it. I can use the SRD to play 3.5 if I want to and not have to buy more books.

 

As for all the online bells and whistles they're promising with 4e, then yes..count me among the alientated too. I'm just a humble worker and peasant who can barely afford the game as it is. Now not only can I not afford to play online, but what are the odds that my (at this point hypethetical) game group will stop meeting because they would rather play online? Huh?

 

If you think the last paragraph was me being overdramatic, just ask anybody who has just lost another friend to WoW.

 

While I understand the need for a company to find a fresh way to make a buck, it's highly unlikely they'll get any of MY money anytime soon.

 

That's my ha'penny's worth.

[Lars Porsenna]

Well now, I think that's just nonsense. The GM runs his game any way he wants, with as much or as little challenge as he wants, and that hasn't changed. In fact, in my experience there was worse GMing during the time of earlier editions than there is now.

As for the other thing, 'comic book' D&D, different strokes for different folks. Yes, there are far fewer restrictions - something usually regarded as a good thing! It means you can choose what your character will be like, instead of being straitjacketed all the time.

 

Totally agree.

 

You can play the game with rock/paper/scissors mechanic, and it will be as monty haul/roleplay intensive as the players want to make it.

 

And I'll tell you what, I also agree: having played EVERY edition of D&D from Original D&D, through 1e AD&D, 2e, 3.0, and 3.5, I've had more monty haul/dungeonhack games under 1e than I have EVER had under any other edition. Part of that was the maturity of the players, and what we wanted from the game. And there's the key: its the PLAYERS that make the game either a comic book game, or something else. As I've stated before, the WoG campaign we're currently playing is definitely a grittier style (though with occasional slapstick, but that's more due to players and bad rolls...), with the "look" more defined by the Reaper minis I bring to the table than the art in the books.

 

Damon.

[Cadaver]

There is no relationship between 3E and original D&D, or OAD&D for that matter. Different games, style, and spirit.

 

So some people have different ideas of what fantasy is than Gary Gygax, oh for shame, then of course we all must be wrong, for Gary's opinion has no bias and is better than everyone else's. All hail Gary Gygax, Uber Gaming Geek.

 

(For the record, Gary Gygax's opinion and approval of what gaming system I use are about as pertinent to me as Bill Gates' opinion and approval of how I use Windows. Which is to say, I do not give a **** . I bought it with my money, I'll do as I wish with it.)

 

WotC has a *very* different take on the system. Not only is it more munchkin, with no restrictions on race, class, or leveling (I suddenly want thief abilities *poof*!), but the artwork has driven the flavor further from its historical wargame roots. It's much more like a comic book now.

 

In old school games, the GM was there to make sure the players were challenged. In 3E, they are there to make sure the players are rewarded.

Unless you are a fanatical rules lawyer who believes the books represent absolute law (You're not welcome to my game, BTW, if that is the case), then everything you have just listed is dependent upon the DM and the players.

ie: In my game, when multi-classing, it isn't a poof and you pick up a new class, it's go to the nearest city to find someone to train you or have another character that is the class train you. After getting the initial training you advance as normal from using those skills as a normal person in that class.

 

In any system, the rules are just guidelines, quite often changed for the benefit of the DM's world.

Some feats, classes and races will be discarded at the GM's whim.

ie: My world has no Gnomes, simply because they don't fit into the history or ecology of my world. (And yes, I find them silly.)

[fieldarchy]

In old school games, the GM was there to make sure the players were challenged. In 3E, they are there to make sure the players are rewarded.

 

Hmmm, I suppose I see this and other complaints as . . . well . . . I guess people are too stuck on rules. This is not meant in any offense, I'm just analyzing what I've observed. In previous groups there have been players who absolutely did not like 3.5. The number one complaint I heard is "it's a miniatures game now! There are too many rules about playing with miniatures and there's not enough RP" My response, well duh! Of course there aren't going to be any RP rules . . . RP is all about your imagination and what your DM will and will not allow. Many people seemed to have a problem with the various game mechanics. I personally believe they are looking at the rules with too narrow a mind. The rules are there for a reason, to allow you to judge what's going on in different situations in the game and how to execute turns and various stats. Your DM is the one responsible for creating the feel to the game.

 

Now, my reaction to the statement above about GMs being there to make sure the players are rewarded . . . I have a similar one to the comment about there not being enough RP and too much focus on mechanics. In the DMG 3.5 it says in the first section that DM's are allowed to and encouraged to make house rules. Your game and the feel of it will be different because of the house rules. In the games that I've run my players have always been challenged. So much so that we started keeping a death shield to keep track of characters who died. I ran very tough and challenging games but it forced my players to be more creative, think outside the box and not just rush in, kill and snatch up the treasure. In fact, a lot of times all they would find are some copper, maybe a healing potion or two. The big stuff was only if they survived the really tough encounters where they earned a new suit of armor or new bow or something.

 

GMs are the referees in the game. They need to make sure the rules are being interpreted as properly as can be, however they are allowed to make DM Calls where they can say, yes this happens or no it doesn't. Just remember to be consistent in your judgements otherwise players will start feeling like there is favoritism.

 

I don't know, I guess what I'm trying to say is . . . the books are just rules. How can they ruin a game or why are there so many people who don't like the game just because the rules are different? If you have a problem with the games your playing, let your DM know. It's the players and the DM who are responisble for putting on a good game. The rules are there just as guidelines. No one is putting a gun to your head and saying you have to follow them to the letter. In fact, some of the rules are so ambiguous you have to interpret them, there is no clear cut answer.

 

And if you don't want to buy 4th ed books, then don't. I knew when I bought my 3.5 set, my very first set of gaming books, that there would be a 4th ed. It came later than I thought it would to be quite honest. It's a way for WoTC to make more money. Yes, it's shameless and I understand it's not the feel of TSR. It seems like WoTC doesn't "care" about their customer base, but they have to make money in order to stick around. Otherwise, they'll end up going out of business if they keep creating the same old tired stuff with no new versions. It's just the way the corporate world works . . . and considering how many complaints were lodged about 3.5 WoTC had to put out another version of the game . . .

[Cadaver]

You can play the game with rock/paper/scissors mechanic, and it will be as monty haul/roleplay intensive as the players want to make it.

 

Funny, Vampire: The Masquerade: Live action was rock/paper/scissors, and was very roleplay intensive.

(Although, I might add it was also a lot of out of game drama, simply due to the large number of Goth/Emo Kids/Drama Majors that joined our community from this game. )