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Frankthedm

D&D 4E seems to be looming ahead.

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When the GMs document of house rules is as thick as the PHB, is he really playing D&D anymore? Maybe, just maybe, there is a better fitting ruleset out there.

It depends on if it's actually just house rules, or as in my case, special races, history, culture, customs, pantheons, new skills, feats, prestige classes,etc. etc.

 

But I will agree with you, I won't be using D&D rules to play a superhero game.

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I was tempted to argue with you guys some more...

 

However I think there are much better rules out there.. already and will not buy into the d20 rules set..

 

You guys like them.. Great!!!

 

I think that d20 will lose market share.

You can't really base this one me as I am not thier target audience. 11-18 year old...

 

I know what's good and what's bad. I believe the OGL and SRD are going away with 4.0

Which IMOO was the only genius part of the ruleset....

 

We shall see...

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There is no relationship between 3E and original D&D, or OAD&D for that matter. Different games, style, and spirit.

 

So some people have different ideas of what fantasy is than Gary Gygax, oh for shame, then of course we all must be wrong, for Gary's opinion has no bias and is better than everyone else's. All hail Gary Gygax, Uber Gaming Geek. :lol:

 

(For the record, Gary Gygax's opinion and approval of what gaming system I use are about as pertinent to me as Bill Gates' opinion and approval of how I use Windows. Which is to say, I do not give a **** . ::D: I bought it with my money, I'll do as I wish with it.)

 

I quoted Gygax because someone asked why so many players of 1/2E dislike 3+E. You can disregard Gygax's opinion on most anything if you want, but the fact is he is the co-author of OD&D and AD&D. When he says 3rd ed isn't D&D any more, it should throw some light on just how far removed the current game is from the older one. For those who like the older game, that helps explain why we don't like we don't like the newer one. They are very different.

 

Regarding Monty Haulism, I don't see WotC pushing 3+E as any kind of scrape and scratch for hard fought gains type of game. It looks a lot like a video game such as Diablo, or perhaps a pinball game with the ludicrous awarding of points.

 

Sure there were Monty Haul 1st ed GMs, but my own experience with RPGA shows that the "CR" of the entire game is below that of earlier editions, and given some statements like "not everybody has hours to game; the game has to be faster and more casual", there is little to refute this.

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There is no relationship between 3E and original D&D, or OAD&D for that matter. Different games, style, and spirit.

 

So some people have different ideas of what fantasy is than Gary Gygax, oh for shame, then of course we all must be wrong, for Gary's opinion has no bias and is better than everyone else's. All hail Gary Gygax, Uber Gaming Geek. :lol:

 

(For the record, Gary Gygax's opinion and approval of what gaming system I use are about as pertinent to me as Bill Gates' opinion and approval of how I use Windows. Which is to say, I do not give a **** . ::D: I bought it with my money, I'll do as I wish with it.)

 

I quoted Gygax because someone asked why so many players of 1/2E dislike 3+E. You can disregard Gygax's opinion on most anything if you want, but the fact is he is the co-author of OD&D and AD&D. When he says 3rd ed isn't D&D any more, it should throw some light on just how far removed the current game is from the older one. For those who like the older game, that helps explain why we don't like we don't like the newer one. They are very different.

 

Regarding Monty Haulism, I don't see WotC pushing 3+E as any kind of scrape and scratch for hard fought gains type of game. It looks a lot like a video game such as Diablo, or perhaps a pinball game with the ludicrous awarding of points.

 

Sure there were Monty Haul 1st ed GMs, but my own experience with RPGA shows that the "CR" of the entire game is below that of earlier editions, and given some statements like "not everybody has hours to game; the game has to be faster and more casual", there is little to refute this.

 

Sure, and I'd disregard Henry Ford on the difference of cars back then and cars now. Not all differences are bad differences, not all change is bad change. Gygax's vision of what D&D should be was disregarded the moment those books hit the shelf. It no longer became just his vision, it became ours. So if you'd rather run with another man's vision, be my guest, I'll happily run with mine.

Any system, any system at all, is what the DM and the players make of it.

But I'm cool if you don't like it, as long as you guys are cool if I do.

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I'm kind of hoping that they win me back. I miss the good 'ol days of roleplaying. Word on the street is that the Star Wars system is the template they are going to work with for D&D. I dunno. I'll wait 'til someone buys a new player's handbook and peruse it myself.

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Hm. I had an awful lot of stuff to quote and offer my two bits on, but I think I'll settle for just summing up my HO.

* I think some game systems do fit certain campaigns better than others. I am currently working on a world concept that will borrow heavily from D&D (3.5) but be tweaked in its own way. Considered modifying D&D to fit, but I want more fluidity for character growth (classes have not yet been established) and too many other changes I felt I would have to make. So I am using GURPS.

* Once I played 3.x, I liked it. Took a bit to convince me, but hey. 4.0 I am looking at skeptically, but games must change for the company to continue making $$. Some of my friends are planning on buying the basics to see what's up. I'll borrow one to read, and pass my opinion on it then.

* I will not be joining the 4.0 online community. Even if it was free. I prefer to sit around a table with my friends where I can see them and interact with them in person.

* There are no hard rules on XP for roleplaying because then rping would become just another system mechanic (you could go make so many Bluff checks to get to next level instead of going out to slaughter so many cows to do it). Skills like Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, etc. exist because some of use aren't like that IRL. Also, our group uses a PC's ranks in those skills to help define how we play that PC. High diplomacy? Maybe that character is always trying to reach compromises and settle disputes, even among the party. No diplomacy? Say what you feel and if the rest can't handle it, **** 'em.

Also, because we also have a group that rps well - and some nights are almost all rp - our GM came up with rp XP so that our characters get XP for more than just killing things. Not a ton, so it doesn't unbalance the system, but he also modifies the XP we get by what we fought, how easy/hard it was, unique solutions, etc. We are all happy with it, and no, our characters don't skyrocket up the levels.

* For the record, our DM does sometimes require us to find training, pay for it, etc. Especially for the more obscure stuff. All depends on the game being run.

* We have had extreme Monty Haul games, and very low treasure games, all in 3.5. All up to the GM and the game he is running.

* We have always had the "Golden Rule" at our games. We will sometimes use the forum for clarification in the case of a strong dispute (or for the GM to see what they say on an issue), but all is resolved in house. And yes, GM has absolute right to veto anything (race, class, feat, etc.) that he doesn't want in the game. And we all abide by it.

 

Roleplaying is entirely up to the GM and players. D&D and many other systems can be rp heavy or rp light, relying on dice roles to run the game. We use the dice rolls and base what our characters said/did based on how good the roll was. Crappy Gather Info check? I knocked the pint of ale off the table and into my informant's lap, ruining th new silk pants he just bought...

 

Everyone will like different games & rules sets, as long as the group you're with are all happy with the system, and want the same thing out of the game, everyone should be happy. :upside:

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Every gaming system is exactly what the GM and players make of it. Just about every game system I have ever played over these past 25 years of role playing have clearly indicated that the rules in the book are entirely at the discretion of the GM and should be used not as Moses carrying tablets down from on high, but as a guideline for play.

 

No chart for XP for roleplaying?

Shocking! How could you?

Can you imagine how huge that chart would be to encompass all those possibilities? Hell, just smooth talking your way past a guard would have to have variations not only based on class and race but on level, charisma, wisdom for both the player and the NPC.

 

Do the rules in 3.0 and 3.5 encourage more hack and slash and dungeon crawling? Sure.

 

But a lot of people like that. They like Roll Playing. It has helped draw in more people to the hobby that are used to pushing a couple buttons and getting results. Some of them grow from the computer playing style to the more role playing. You really don't need a lot of rules or mechanics for Role Playing. Plus, if you are doing a lot of Role Playing, but you happen to be playing a character not like you (and who hasn't at some point?) you may not be able to truly play the role of a 10th level Bard with a Charisma of 20. So rather than stumble and bumble trying to in RL say what you want. You give the GM an idea of what you think you want to do, he assigns a modifier, and you roll to see if it works. Or, if you happen to be a honey tongued prince in RL, and the Bard is just an extension of your hyper active ego, you start your solioquy, and if the GM buys it, you don't roll, and he says: Congrats, the Guard lets you pass, but probably just so you shut up. :lol:

 

I would hate to play in a system that has a chart for everything that may come up, the book would require a dumptruck.

 

Once again, it comes down to this simple fact: Every gaming system is exactly what the GM and players make of it.

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Try playing HERO, where 5 XPs is a lot after finishing a scenario. But it's not based on the "so many XP per kill" system, more on how much each player/character contributed to the game overall, with things like 1 extra point to the character that found an interesting way to use a skill to help bring the scenario to an end.

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I would hate to play in a system that has a chart for everything that may come up, the book would require a dumptruck.

 

Actually it doesn't require a dump truck its called Rolemaster in Fantasy and Battlelords of the 23rd Century in SF...

 

Missing my point entirely.. I am not looking for even hard fast rules..on awarding XP...

But you did hit a good point Roll playing and Role playing are not the same. I admit there has to be some sort of mix..

 

I obviously would NOT do well playing the fairy princess... and so I do need some help..

My point was that help does not come from the rules themselves..and the rules are very vague on what kind of help to give.

 

The rules are written so that 11-18 ear olds can roll play games.. and that gentleman is not how I grew up playing 1st ed, or rolemaster or aftermath

twilight 2000 or boot hill, gama world..traveller.. etc..where the adventure was the game. There was a since of acomplishment and not just the amassing of treasure..

 

Those games have a place.. We called it Gods and Giveaway back in the day.. No problem with that just not my cup of tea.. and neither have the 3 ed or 3.5 ed been.

 

Bash Gygax if you will I have never met the man....

I love his old modules..They were epic even if my characters were not.. but I love Dave Arnesons too.... Temple of the Frog..

So his vision may not be my vision, but I aprreciate them sharing.

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Bash Gygax if you will I have never met the man....

I love his old modules..They were epic even if my characters were not.. but I love Dave Arnesons too.... Temple of the Frog..

So his vision may not be my vision, but I aprreciate them sharing.

I didn't bash him. I just don't revere him as some do, and I simply think that his vision is no more important than anyone else's.

I'm quite sure H. G. Wells would have something to say about miniature wargaming, and I guarantee it would be along the lines of how things have changed.

Now, would it be pertinent? Probably not. Does that mean "Little Wars" is a superior game to it's modern equivalents? Nope. (H. G. Wells would probably be considered Uber Gaming Geek God seeing as he started it all.)

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Can you imagine how huge that chart would be to encompass all those possibilities? Hell, just smooth talking your way past a guard would have to have variations not only based on class and race but on level, charisma, wisdom for both the player and the NPC.
Then I understand that you would be playing Traveler. ::D:
Do the rules in 3.0 and 3.5 encourage more hack and slash and dungeon crawling? Sure.
3.x rules encourage defeating challenges which have a given challenge rating. Kicking in the door and outsmarting the lizardman inside are worth just as much XP as picking the lock and braining the same lizardman.

 

As much as players complain, 3.x was a step away from pure hack & slash.

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But I will agree with you, I won't be using D&D rules to play a superhero game.

 

Mutants and Masterminds is the only superhero RPG system I've ever liked. It isn't really D&D (though it is D20).

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But I will agree with you, I won't be using D&D rules to play a superhero game.

 

Mutants and Masterminds is the only superhero RPG system I've ever liked. It isn't really D&D (though it is D20).

I used to play using Marvel RPG rules, simply because the Ultimate Powers book was awesome, the mechanics themselves weren't that great. I just wasn't impressed with GURPS in that Genre. I'll have to check out M&M, though.

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I found Mutants and Masterminds a lot of fun, and very flexible, but character generation is heckuva involved! We had to dedicate an entire gaming night to character generation. Once you start getting into arrays...

 

Damon.

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For those of us not in the loop, when is 4.0 coming? I have only heard that there will be an OGL for it, but I don't know the particulars or the veracity of that.

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