sayuri Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 Hi, everyone! I'm new to the Forum, and really quite new to mini painting too. And I'm in way over my head. A guy at work caught me priming a big group of minis, and began pestering me about doing a couple of his. In a moment of epic stupid, I told him I would. Four days later, he brought me five minis. One is a Reaper mini; the others appear to be minis for Excelsior's Ironclaw RPG. And they were in miserable condition! So far, I've soaked them in Pepsi to remove the tarnish, and scrubbed them with Pine-Sol to remove the multiple layers of dirt. The Reaper mini looks great and is good to go; but I've got some questions regarding the others before I do anything else there: - The first thing I noticed about the Excelsior minis was that they had a weird texture; totally different from any of mine. Having done some reading, I'm thinking that they're some of those older, high-lead-content deals. I now know that the Pine-Sol probably wasn't a good thing; what else do I need to know about lead-ier minis? Do I need to take any special safety precautions working with these things? Is there anything different that I should or shouldn't do to them? Are they more porous than white metal? (they sure feel like it!) - One of the Excelsiors was very badly discolored. Following the Pepsi and Pine-Sol baths, he's better; but still looks like he narrowly survived a three-alarm fire. Can a blackened mini still be painted? - Finally, the other three Excelsior minis have a...coating (can't think of a better word) of something or another that survived the baths and brushing, but does come off if its filed. Filing the metal returns it to a nice, shiny state; but I obviously can't do that to the entire mini: there'd be no detail left! Any ideas as to what this might be and/or how it can be safely removed? Sorry to be so high-maintenance on the first post...never anything done halfway over here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Kutz Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 I doubt the Pine-Sol is going to harm those minis - lead is a pretty resilient metal (that is why it was used for plumbing since Roman times). The texture may be the start of lead bloom/rot, or it might just be the texture of the metal used (lead feels different than newer white metals). Hard to say for certain without seeing the minis or touching them. As far as discoloration goes...I have painted minis which had turned various shaded from a light grey to golds all the way to nearly black. They all have held up quite well over the years. Make sure they don't have any kind of loose flakey material on them, and get a good coat of primer to prevent the oxidization from continuing under the paint. As far as lead goes... I myself am a lot less afraid of it than I am old people driving. That said - Don't eat it, don't smoke it and don't melt it down and rub it into your mucous membranes. For the safety of the mini...high lead minis are a lot softer than modern pewter. I would't file much of anything on it, but using a stiff nylon brush works pretty good (cheap tooth brush type). Normally when working with lead minis, I do all my brushing/filing with the mini underwater and bring it out to inspect the work. The water keeps the lead from becoming airborne in the form of particulate. Be careful though. Very high lead content minis can even be damaged by the nylon brushes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reaper User Vaitalla Posted August 30, 2007 Reaper User Share Posted August 30, 2007 Yeah, hard to tell without seeing pics, but sounds kinda like the start of lead rot, in which case you should go to your friend and explain that the minis are irredeemable (to get yourself out of what sounds like an unpleasant project) EXCEPT for the Reaper mini, which you will be happy to paint for him. General rule for painters, by the way: Learn to say no. Explain very nicely that you would love to, but that you want and need to paint your OWN stuff, which you will not be able to get to if you are taking on free work from others. And if you are taking on free work, believe me, it will not stop there. The people in question may not feel they are taking advantage of you, but they are. This was a hard lesson for me to learn, back when I was starting out, but I managed to do it for my own sanity. I also got to be a better painter when I was choosing my own projects instead of letting others choose them--it's much easier to get excited about a mini you chose for yourself. Anyhoo, back on topic, the discoloration is fine to paint over, like Joe says. So if any of the old ones are just that and don't have the rot, you could paint those. --Anne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fieldarchy Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 Yeah, hard to tell without seeing pics, but sounds kinda like the start of lead rot, in which case you should go to your friend and explain that the minis are irredeemable (to get yourself out of what sounds like an unpleasant project) EXCEPT for the Reaper mini, which you will be happy to paint for him. General rule for painters, by the way: Learn to say no. Explain very nicely that you would love to, but that you want and need to paint your OWN stuff, which you will not be able to get to if you are taking on free work from others. And if you are taking on free work, believe me, it will not stop there. The people in question may not feel they are taking advantage of you, but they are. ' Very hard lesson to learn and be able to execute. If I'm too busy with what I've got I tell people to hold on to their minis and I will be able to paint for them somewhere down the road. That way they know they will get some painting out of you but you aren't agreeing to it right now. I keep a list of people who have asked me to paint for them and let them know as soon as I have gotten done with projects I'm working on and done several minis for me I will let them know. It's a first come, first served sort of deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Versutus Vulpes Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 Yep - I just about killed myself doing a bunch of GW mini's for a friends army. At first I thought - hey - free minis to paint. But after painting the same mini (essentially) for the 5th time, for someone else.... I started to question my judgment. Relax - and enjoy yourself - pick your battles - and your minis - carefully... well not too carefully - or you'll never get a shelf of shame . Also - I am wondering if the discolouration might be primer? depending on how old they are - and what was available - they might be primed with old auto primer or something of the sort that the PineSol didn't cut through... Take a picture and post it if you can. (D'oh - and welcome aboard!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastman Posted August 31, 2007 Share Posted August 31, 2007 Most primers are easily removed with acetone, so you could give them an acetone bath and see if that removes the discolored (but filable) layer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sayuri Posted August 31, 2007 Author Share Posted August 31, 2007 As far as lead goes... I myself am a lot less afraid of it than I am old people driving. ROTFLMAO! I work for OnStar; trust me: you'd never leave your basement if you knew just how much you have to fear from them! That's actually a very common conversation topic between calls. That, and how none of us are ever moving to Florida.... That said - Don't eat it, don't smoke it and don't melt it down and rub it into your mucous membranes. <*giggle*> Duly noted! For the safety of the mini...high lead minis are a lot softer than modern pewter. I would't file much of anything on it, but using a stiff nylon brush works pretty good (cheap tooth brush type).... Be careful though. Very high lead content minis can even be damaged by the nylon brushes. I did notice that the little swords in particular will bend into pretzels if I so much as look at 'em too hard. I thought about replacing them. Briefly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sayuri Posted August 31, 2007 Author Share Posted August 31, 2007 General rule for painters, by the way: Learn to say no. Explain very nicely that you would love to, but that you want and need to paint your OWN stuff, which you will not be able to get to if you are taking on free work from others. And if you are taking on free work, believe me, it will not stop there. The people in question may not feel they are taking advantage of you, but they are. Very hard lesson to learn and be able to execute. If I'm too busy with what I've got I tell people to hold on to their minis and I will be able to paint for them somewhere down the road. That way they know they will get some painting out of you but you aren't agreeing to it right now. I keep a list of people who have asked me to paint for them and let them know as soon as I have gotten done with projects I'm working on and done several minis for me I will let them know. It's a first come, first served sort of deal. Ah, touche. And given that I am working towards a career in the arts, I can see how the Art of No would be a lesson worth getting down-pat pretty quickly...if for no other reason than the fact that too many Yes-es will mean I'll never learn to blend colors as heavenly as yours, fieldarchy! WOW!! Anyhoo, I've decided that I'll only actually paint two of the five: the Reaper one (what can I say, it's a Garrity) and this interesting li'l girl-fox-thing that's probably going to eat my lunch. I did prime all of them to keep them from oxidizing any further, though, which brings me to another question: how much primer is "enough" primer; is there such a thing as "too little"? Er, and I am a control freak who therefore insists upon using the brush-on stuff: should I avoid using the same brushes to prime that I use to paint? I noticed that my little shader didn't seem to appreciate that task too much this time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psyberwolfe1 Posted August 31, 2007 Share Posted August 31, 2007 which brings me to another question: how much primer is "enough" primer; is there such a thing as "too little"? Er, and I am a control freak who therefore insists upon using the brush-on stuff: should I avoid using the same brushes to prime that I use to paint? I noticed that my little shader didn't seem to appreciate that task too much this time. Good question! With paint on primers all you got to do is paint on thin layers untill you see no more bare metal/ plastic. Two thin even layers should do it. (I have been relegated to brush on primer hell this summer. Not a frakin day below 90 degrees or 65% hummidity. ) Too much primer and you'll obscure details, but two even thin coats should do it. Yes I do use different brushes to prime. They are the Armoury round sables ($15 for a pack of three.) They are super hardy brushes that stand up well to drybrushing, stippling, and prime coats. My WNS7s hate primer and grunt work (they told me .) The only commisions I accept are commissions I choose. e.g. My friend finished a super sweet conversion of a Space Marine, and I asked if I could paint it. I suck at converting, he sucks at painting, but together we are powerful. Be stingy on your commission paint jobs and you will get more done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madog Barfog Posted August 31, 2007 Share Posted August 31, 2007 I've never known Pine Sol to damage metal minis, and I have stripped several from many companies and time periods. GENTLE brushing with toothpaste may brighten a discolored mini. Don't forget to floss! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerridwyn1st Posted August 31, 2007 Share Posted August 31, 2007 (edited) On the subject of saying "no", sometimes the request is so silly you don't have any trouble at all. When I was just getting started, but other people had noticed me, another gamer suggested I paint his 40K army as "advertisement." That wasn't too hard to turn down. Paint and army for FREE? For someone few people even LIKE? Who rarely shows up at the game store anyway? Give me a break... Another guy told me I'd been paid too much in credit by Reaper for a Warlord squad I painted. He then asked if I'd paint a bunch of plastic minis "like the box" for $3 a figure. I don't think I've ever said "no" so fast in my life. Oh, another way to discourage silly requests is to mention what you charge. That will stop a lot of people in their tracks. Edited August 31, 2007 by Cerridwyn1st Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vutpakdi Posted August 31, 2007 Share Posted August 31, 2007 I think that knowing how much your time is worth to you and how it varies by the task, subject, and recipient is very important in general. An acquaintance once commented that he would like to get me to paint his Reven once he picks up some minis because he likes how I painted mine, and I quickly told him that since my painting time is so limited, he would have to paint a long time, and I'd have to charge so much to make it worth my time that it wouldn't be a good idea. I added that he would be better off getting one of the commission painters to paint for him. On the other hand, I'd be happy to paint some minis for some friends as a gift when I choose to do so. In the last few years, I've created some starship / spacecraft deckplans for Traveller on commission and for commercial sale, but only when they made economic sense for me to do so. When one publisher's commercial terms stopped making economic sense for me, I wished them well and stopped doing work for them. The economic sense bar is lower for the deckplans because it's work that I can do during part of my lunch break. Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Kutz Posted August 31, 2007 Share Posted August 31, 2007 how much primer is "enough" primer; is there such a thing as "too little"? Depends. Obviously, you need to have full coverage in order for the primer to work like it is supposed to . If the primer doesn't cover everything, it won't help paint stick where it isn't. However, as long as you have full coverage, you can't have the primer be too thin (it isn't the color coverage you are worried about, just the paint itself). You can however have primer be too thick. Look for certain details like eyelids before priming - and make sure they are still visibile after priming. If they are not...probably too much primer. As far as brushes go...I almost exclusively prime with airbrush now. However when I was using rattle cans and brush-on primers, I would always use a throw away brush. Not a real cheap throw away brush, but not a really good keeper brush. They would normally last a dozen or so minis before needing replaced. This is because you normally spend a bit of time stabbing and jabbing into the corners and crevices and under tufts of fur to get primer in those hard to reach areas. Hard on the brushes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sayuri Posted September 1, 2007 Author Share Posted September 1, 2007 About the brushes -- the WNS7s everyone likes so much: are we talking about WN's oil and acrylic brushes, or their watercolor ones? I just visited my friendly neighborhood Utrecht (my idea of heaven-on-earth ), and it appears the Series 7 come in both. Which one am I lookin' fer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastman Posted September 1, 2007 Share Posted September 1, 2007 About the brushes -- the WNS7s everyone likes so much: are we talking about WN's oil and acrylic brushes, or their watercolor ones? I just visited my friendly neighborhood Utrecht (my idea of heaven-on-earth ), and it appears the Series 7 come in both. Which one am I lookin' fer? I'm used to seeing the Series 7 brushes categorized as watercolor brushes, but a quick search on Blick for "brushes by media type" doesn't list them under either "watercolor brushes"" or "oil & acrylic brushes" (even though they do still carry them). The W&N website classifies the S7 and S7miniature as watercolor brushes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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