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vutpakdi

Mercenaries in Other Factions

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I'm sorry that you have not seen a balanced proposal. Fortunatly we're not trying to achieve complete balance, we can save that for the play testers and Reaper Peeps.

 

Our goal here should be to offer fun ideas, and just try to keep playable.

Since you're abandoned all concern for playbalance, then there's really no basis for conversation at all. You've said what you want to have and have no basis upon which to justify it other than your own gut feelings. And, despite your denials, your gut feelings are demonstrably anti-merc. That's too bad, really. Your proposal was halfway decent until you started throwing out arbitrary discipline penalties and point cost increases, along with nonsense arguments to support them.

 

+mercs 10% (with no penalties) is a decent idea. On that much, at least, we can agree. I would like to see that playtested. In fact, I wouldn't mind seeing your whole proposal playtested. I think you would discover that nobody competent would go over 10% mercs in order to avoid your arbitrary penalties. Then, once we've settled that your penalty scheme was pointless rubbish, we could begin experimenting with higher percentages of +mercs w/o pentalties.

 

I think +mercs 25% (no penalties) would be worth playtesting.

-StV.

I can't believe I'm still biting on this.

You are going to have to define "Gut Feeling". I've pointed out several facts throughout the games history that back up the theory that an army with a wider selection of models has an advantage over armies without.

The fact that in the Chronicles that all armies were made to be equal. The fact that smaller sublists get better faction abilities. The fact that freelance armies get no faction abilities.

We also shouldn't forget that the original rules in testing were similar to what you want, but even with a 25% cap and forcing them to be taken in their own troops; the rules were not officially released, I'm guessing it was because of balance issues, otherwise it probably would have been included in Chronicles '07.

I thought Gut Feelings was something a person would believe dispite popular opinion, and without looking or possibly ignoring evidence around them... which is really more like what you're doing. I mean unless you have other reasons for the things above, you must be using your gut feelings from the games you've played.

 

I'll also need to you to explain "anti-merc". If by that, you mean I am against a faction keeping their current faction abilities and being allowed to expand their model selection than I am, "anti-merc"... But since this has no real bearing on what faction is used to supplement the force, I'm a bit out of the loop. I'm also against Crusaders getting to keep Mercy when playing with both their models and elven models... also against a reven and reptus army using Reptus FAs... And Darkspawn keeping paincage when someone fields Darkspawn, Overlords, and Necropolis... So I guess a proper term would be "anti-faction alliances without a proper penalty to counter balance the given advantage"... but maybe you're just shortening it.

 

I am also wondering if you read the entire posts you reply too. Through this entire topic, I have been AGAINST a point increase on individual models.

I am in support of a detrimintal Faction Ability, that is applied when a Faction gets to keep their normal Faction Abilities and take Mercenary models.

 

I also apologize that you thought my statement about leaving the hardwork of balancing to the play testers meant I wanted to abondon the pursuit of a balanced solution.

What I wanted to get across without sounding rude was, I don't think you can see a balanced proposal. When other players have as much and probably more (based on your participation in faction tactic threads and lack of a handle on ReaperHQ) play experience than you; it's inappropriate to claim their ideas to be "utterly pointless, as well as unreasonable, and founded upon a view biased against mercs" or "pointless rubbish". Your opinion on the matter at hand is no greater, or less than anyone elses and I found it extremely arrogant for one to act as if they possess the all seeing eye of balance.

The last bit about leaving it to the play testers was there a bit of tongue in cheek, since I hope to play test whatever Merc rules to rise to the surface one day.

 

 

At this point you and I are practically trolling this thread, and I don't think anything else we say towards each other will result in productive on topic debate. So I propose we agree to disagree, something we should have done 2 pages ago :)

 

I will say you get some long winded posts out of me :)

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[MOD] This thread is very quickly outliving its usefulness, which is unfortunate because I think the original discussion behind this thread has merit.

 

I will be closing it if people cannot keep themselves on the topic at hand rather than making comments on the individual posters. This is your final warning to play nice. [/MOD]

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I'd like this discussion to get back on track. I think there is potential to create some great thematic armies with a little additional flexibility in army lists. As i mentioned before I'd like to see armies that contain troops of different factions, but each troop must be a single faction, in fact I'd prefer this style of build to replace the current freelance company if there is no way to make it additional, the current freelance just seems a bit too hodge podge, a troop containing models from 5-6 different factions just doesn't feel right, at least to me. Not to mention that you can combine reven and dwarfs in the same troop under the current structure.

 

I think that an idea that allows mixed factions but at a disadvantage (+points, - dis etc.) is possibly the easiest to implement as it prevents list gamers tuning a "perfect" list and imitation lists springing up all over the place, while still allowing people who want to try something different or thematic to do so once in a while. Not everyone is obsessive about must win at all costs, and most (i hope) would prefer to do their winning on the table top rather than in list selection.

 

As i read the current rules it is acceptable to have multiple players on a side, and for each to field a single faction with SA, it would be nice to find a structured way to allow single player armies to do a similar thing.

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Guys, I have only read up to page 2 but something is bugging me.

 

Befor I start, I have not played the game. I do have the core rule book and read it page to page but I do not know what the current changes are in chronicles.

 

This is whats bugging me. From what I read of the rules, armis that use merchs can not use their special army abilities. Darkspawn can not use pain cages, Crusaders can not use mercy, ect. Is this not ballencing enough? You have to choose between a realy cool faction ability or filling in gaps with mercs. Is that right? Has that been changed?

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You've got it right Redfeild. While the current rules are balanced, it doesn't have a satisfactory option for creating a faction army utilizing mercs. Currently the only way to create a faction army with mercs is to use the freelance rules and "artificially" work within the constraints of the merc list and models from your chosen faction. The penalty ofcourse is the loss of all FAs, which most feel is too harsh since you're not putting the freelance FA (chose freely between models) to full use.

 

The idea we're working on here (as far as I can see) is to find a balanced way to represent faction armies with mercs. Something in between what is currently a Freelance army and a faction army. The reason of course being that it fits the Taltos fluff very well to field such forces, so people want to do so without losing faction flavor.

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This is whats bugging me. From what I read of the rules, armis that use merchs can not use their special army abilities. Darkspawn can not use pain cages, Crusaders can not use mercy, ect. Is this not ballencing enough? You have to choose between a realy cool faction ability or filling in gaps with mercs. Is that right? Has that been changed?

 

The thing that bugs me most with the current situation is that the disadvantage of adding a single troop of mercs, or any other faction is exactly the same as the disadvantage for playing a freelance company, i'd really like to see something inbetween, although there must be a disadvantage in some form to account for the additional flexibility.

 

Someone mentioned the idea of having a new negative FA for each army list which is taken whenever non-faction troops are added, i like this, but the negative FA's would need to be developed.

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