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It's OK to paint like crap...


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Ok just my 2 coppers here and take it for what its worth I have a headful of Ambien CR ATM :P I think Matsumoto's point, er 1 of them anyway is that we should be careful not to scare off new painters without them the hobby is doomed to fade. That said if you ask for a critque then you better be prepared to here good and bad, plain and simple thats what a critic does when they critique yes? I know my stuff is strictly game play quality, Like Qwk said I have far too many other responsibilities to get much better. But that doesnt mean I cant love the hobby. And I love coming here to see the fantastic stuff the more talented members of the community are willing to show.

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Actually - that would be a really neat exercise... Painting the same mini in different 'classic' styles... Pointalism, Fauvism, Cubist, Abstract...


Oh no you can't have your own style that isn't ultra smooth looks like it was painted with an airbursh paintjob. Just because you can see brush strokes in all manner of canvas painting from ultra realist to post modernist we can't have them on a mini. Oh no. No we can't. Only one style is good.

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Apparently I am a 15 year old gamer, because I take the responsibility of work, wife, child, family, and household too seriously and don't toss those responsibilities aside in order to paint my army to completion for your pleasure.


Sorry, I would much rather embrace my daughter and play with her than embrace your version of the hobby.


And by the way, I know a lot of 15 year olds that have gamed that would also take offense at the comments that they lack responsibility and can't put an army together as well.


And with that, I am taking my little tin soldiers, and going home. ::P:

Because anyone that knows me, knows calling me a 15 year old is generous. I prefer to act like I am 8.


Oh yes those of us with painted armies must be abusive and neglectful bastages without jobs. And we are so mean and oppressive for holding a few painted only events. How dare we enjoy that over just rolling dice and doing math in our head and we even use that darn terrain stuff that gets in the way. We're so unreasonable. Or perhaps it's just the way we manage our time. For instance some of us don't have 10,000 carefully crafted snarky post over the last two years. Some of us spent that time painting our armies and a few of us spent that time painting our minis while making snarky post. :devil:

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This seems to be a good time to introduce everyone to a practice on the MMORPG community.


The Waffle Recipe.. the perfect way to say.. um.. time to take a breather and have some WAFFLES!


Apple Cinnamon Waffles


(6 servings) Printable Version


* 2 cups flour

* 3 tbs sugar

* 2 tsp baking powder

* 1/2 teaspoon salt

* 2 seperated eggs

* 1 1/4 cups milk

* 1/3 cup vegetable oil

* 1 finely sliced apple

* 2 tsp cinnamon

* any brand waffle maker


1.Sift together flour, sugar, baking powder, and salt. Set aside.

2. In a small bowl, beat egg whites until stiff; set aside.

3. In a meduim bowl, beat egg yolks well. Stir in milk.

4. Add sifted dry ingredients to egg yolks and mix until moistened (be careful not to over mix).

5. Add vegetable oil. Fold in egg whites.

6. Pour cinnamon in mixture. Stir.

7. Add apples. Blend lightly into mixture.

8. Bake in preheated waffle maker for at least

4-5, until crisp and brown.



You can also try adding different fruits and spices instead of apple and cinnamon.




There ya go!



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Are those waffles to be wet-blended?


Speaking on behalf of the crappy painters out there, I agree with what King Tiger said earlier. If we intimidate new painters away by only displaying and/or praising the highest level of painting, we're not doing the hobby any favours.


So... paint, ye crappy painters..and post! Don't make me have to be the ONLY one. Let's UNITE and be happy in our crappyness!

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No worries I didn't take it directed at me at all. I was basically saying what you were saying. I like metallics but in order to win comps it seems you need to execute NMM, not metallics. You also need freehand because that clearly makes the mini better.


Eh, paint what you are happy with is my motto!

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Okies, I see some heated comments in here, but mostly y'all are keeping it civil...just try not to take any of this personally, please. Yes we all have different opinions about painted vs. non-painted armies, but let's avoid insulting those who prioritize their time differently. We are a community of people who love what we do, be it gaming, painting, or hanging around on the Reaper boards getting nothing productive done... :lol:


For the record...


Not all of the competition painters scorn metallics; look at Tim Lison's work, or Jakob Rune Neilson's (sp?); they are masters of shaded metallics who have won Demons and Swords both.


If you think that stylistic painting vs. smooth blends doesn't win competitions either, you'd better tell Joe Orteza and Victor Hardy--both utilize non-conventional styles and color choices and win crazy amounts of Demons (and in Victor's case, Swords). Also take a look at half the painters in French GD; those guys are nuts! :lol:


Finally, if anyone insults or looks down at another painter's style on these boards, I'd better be told about it. I'm disturbed by what some of you are implying about the talk on here. This place is for reasoned discussion of painting, any style, any take, any philosophy or lack thereof. You don't like Confrontation-style painting, fine, but bashing is not allowed--even if you can paint as well as those guys, and they're darn good whether you like the style or no! If someone comes up and posts a mini that's drybrushed with a size 40 brush, they're welcome to, and shouldn't have to hear snide comments. ::):


Thanks all. I know that most of you are very respectful of each other's takes on painting, and I appreciate it. It warms my heart to see that most times, the pettiness which sometimes shows up in the mini-painting world doesn't find its way here. ::):


With that...continue with your discussion of crapulence! I should dig out one of my half-painted chaos thingees that I used to put on a gaming table and post it, just for fun. ::D:



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Ok just my 2 coppers here and take it for what its worth I have a headful of Ambien CR ATM :P I think Matsumoto's point, er 1 of them anyway is that we should be careful not to scare off new painters without them the hobby is doomed to fade.

Even on a headful of Ambien, I think you got Matsumoto's point. Or at least the same point I did.


I know first hand that some of my own early crappy paintjobs inspired a couple other people to try their hand at painting, and get their army painted up. One of them turned out to be a great painter, but admitted he never would have tried it if he hadn't seen paint jobs he _thought_ he could do.


Whether or not an army is painted well, or even painted at all is far less important than encouraging new players to play, veteran players to keep playing and making them both welcome. A couple of the comments I've seen here would drive me away from playing with a group if they were said to my face too often - regardless if I was a new player, or a veteran of a couple of years.


So, to echo Matsomuto's thread title - we tabletop veterans need to let new players know that it's ok to paint like crap - the only way you're going to get any better is to just do it.

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I suppose I have a lot to say here. Some off topic and some on topic (I think) And remember that this is my opinion.



We should all keep in mind that there are many schools of painting styles which shouldn't be compared to eachother. Some are for tabletop gaming and others are for display. One is not better than the other in the realm it was meant for. They can't be easily compared to each other since one is on parallel with art and the other for presentation.


Personally, back in the 1800s when I first picked up a white dwarf I was amazed at their paint jobs and wanted to paint as well as them. I strived to paint my armies better and painted with those who were better or equal to my skill (and not as good- but taught them) for many years. Techniques were learned and applied and it got me to be the mini painter I am today. Without the foundations of techniques used in painting mass troops I wouldn't have the brush control I have now. I wouldn't speed paint nearly as well or as fast. I'm very glad I have painted upwards of 500 minis and wouldn't trade that experience for anyone's NMM or OSL abilities. Most high level painters who have ever gamed probably share my thoughts on this. Competition painting is as painstaking and tedious and every bit as rewarding as having an army painted to a fine tabletop standard. I just feel that one shouldn't be compared to the other.


As for the topic of this thread- I have no problem looking at minis that are painted by inexperienced painters or folks who just cant seem to paint straight lines. I encourage those folks to post here. If they want to improve their techniques there is no better place to post them. If they don't care to improve on their paint and just want to show off their stuff somewhere other than CMON this is a good place for that as well. The showoff forum's history shows that miniatures don't get slammed (and if they are the person doing so is dealt with) and people often comment in a way that is helpful to the original poster: be it a pat on the back or criticism.


As for having painted armies- I could care less if an opponents army is painted or not so long as they could keep track of models which look the same in different units. If a prospective opponent or store owner told me that I couldn't play against them or in their store because my army wasn't painted I would certainly want to know why. It seems to me that those sorts of attitudes are aimed at marketing (store owner or tourney rule) or a person thinks they don't deserve to play against an unpainted army(what?, are they too good to even bother). <and if this elitist gamer person happened to bump one of my painted minis with a die or knock one over they would be in big trouble... not so with my unpainted armies (once again- these are my opinions).


You may be asking- pre, why is your opinion so long?


The room I am sitting in contains two 40k armies, upwards of 80 cav models, and seven warlord armies. Three warlord armies are painted and a few cavs are painted, all to tabletop standards. I carry them around in tackleboxes. They will get all banged up taking them out of the house to the game store. I would rather game at home with my painted minis. They get less damaged. the painted minis are in soft trays and a reaper case. They take up a lot of room and i seldom take them anywhere. I have won miniature painting competitions over the last few years and am fully capable of painting an army to a very high standard or to a "normal" gaming standard. Either one of those would cost me time I would rather spend on other things. If I were to paint them up I would have to invest heavily in transports...lots of transports. And that money could be better spent.


So, bottom line- paint for yourself or don't paint at all, but either way, plop the minis down and play the game.




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Every group is different and I'm fine with that. Qwyk, I didn't mean to imply that you or your friends were playing the game wrong. Every group is different. Some people are fine with unpainted models. I'm not. Earlier you said something about me walking away from a "Great Game" because you might not have a painted army. Well, that's where I disagree. I can't have a "Great Game" with any miniature game when someone is fielding a large number of unpainted models. The games that take my breath away are the ones that are not only fun to play, but great just to witness. Being able to see a fully painted table complete with sweet terrain is just a great sight in my eyes. That's not to imply you're not a cool guy and would be a lot of fun to play with, just that I would rather not play this particular type of game with you. I can have a "Great Game" of Puerto Rico, Arkham Horror, Dungeons & Dragons, or even Ultimate Frisbee and never have to touch paint to model. I've had plenty of fun games playing with people with unpainted models. I've even fielded unpainted models from time to time and had fun, but the really fun games are the ones that are fun on all levels from personable opponent to painted model, it's all important to me.


I didn't mean to suggest that you needed to paint for me either. I obviously am not playing with you. Ask the people you do play with though, especially the ones that get their stuff painted (assuming some do) if they would rather play in a game where their opponent is fully painted or not. As their friend, I would think you'd want to paint for them and hopefully increase everyone's level of enjoyment.


I believe that games are a shared experience that require everyone bring something to the table. Like I said before, you expect things of people when you play a game with them. You might expect less than I do, but look at what you do expect and ask yourself if maybe it's not unreasonable for someone else to expect that much more (painted models) from you.


Think about this, no one in the history of wargaming as opened a rule-book, looked at an epic battle unfolding between two awesomely painted armies on a studio designed table and thought to themselves, "I think I'm going to drop $500 on this game, spend 200+ hours painting stuff, another 30 or so working on terrain and hopefully I'll find someone who is willing to cut out some cardboard chits and play with me!" It's just not why people get into wargames. Wargames are expensive, time consuming, tend to have relatively weak rules, and ultimately are really only cool because you get to push around toy soldiers. If you're just playing for the "game", I can pretty well guarantee that there are cheaper, quicker and better balanced games out there to enjoy.


All that said, I really sincerely believe that everyone plays games to a level that they are comfortable with and that is a great thing! "Right" or "Wrong" is less important than everyone having fun. I'm sorry if I came off as elitist, I'm not trying to say anyone is wrong in how they play miniature games. I do still believe that miniature games are best played painted however. No one can expect more than that, it's fun to watch which means new people are more likely to get interested and it really helps to justify the expense required to play if you actually enjoy more than just the game.

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I wasn't going to jump into this fray at first and I've been following it for days now...


I agree with Anne, Qwyk and the like.


I haven't played an actual wargame now in about four years. The gaming group dissolved due to the unusual antics of my ex at the time and another girl in the group who decided to steal a very large sum of cash from another group member. Add to that later that year our DM moved to Phoenix AZ. Last year the other remaining group members all moved out of state. :mellow:


With that said I paint for pure enjoyment now. I don't paint for an army and I typically don't paint for competitions either. I've only entered one competition and that was R-con'06. Most of what I paint now are gifts for other people unless it's one of those minis I found that I really like and want for myself.


Do I try to improve my painting? Yes. However, I'm not out to win a demon or a sword or anything of that caliber. And when I was gaming, I didn't care what anyone's army or few minis looked like. I didn't care if they were bare metal either. Did it matter? Heck no. Not everyone has the time or the artistic ability to paint. I for one am on the limited time end of the spectrum these days. Two jobs, A Father who almost killed himself this past March, Moderating on Bonsaisite, Moderating on RyksyllMOO, and a host of other things keep my mini painting time exceptionally limited. I'm in the process of trying to rearrange my desk to have space to paint at it so I can perhaps paint while dealing with people as I moderate.


The way I see it, if you're gaming, you're there because you enjoy the game, it isn't going to matter if you have well-painted minis or post-it notes for your army. I'll certainly encourage those who are trying to paint and want to paint better, but I'm not going to put someone down for having a mini that isn't well painted.

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