What makes fantasy minis so hot in the U.S. in particular?

[Joe Kutz]

Why is it that English, Germans, and French gamers would rather play cowboy games than Americans. That just ain't right.

 

Because they secretly desire to be loud mouthed, gun toting Americans.

 

There are a number of generic sci-fi lines out there, there are a number of generic pulp lines out there, there are a crap load of historical lines out there. However I can't think of a single one which has been as successful as generic fantasy miniatures. From a business stand point it just doesn't make good sense to put eggs in that basket unless you are in a situation that would allow you to not need to make good returns on the sculpting/mold-making/marketing investment. While it has gotten a little shot in the arm as of late, I don't think there are enough customers who are willing to pay for minis to make it worth while. Historicals BTW are almost right out. Most of those sell for $2-3 per mini (even less quite often) and I don't think it would be a viable option considering Reapers price structure.

 

One of the reasons that Reaper is still around while companies like Grenadier, Ral Partha and other big ones from back in the day are not is they run their company like a business. The ones who are currently producing the sci-fi or pulp minis are tiny companies...normally a handful of people who are usually related to each other. More often than not, just a single person who does the sculpting, casting and everything else in their garage. That allows them to survive on much lower sales volumes. Nearly no overhead and no one you need to share the profits with.

 

I can't fathom why because it would be so much easier to provide a good selection of minis to support Pulp gaming than D&D. Same for modern or wild west. Look at any of the dark heaven collections like 2800s. Make an equal number of modern characters and that would support modern era roleplaying better than the entire Dark Heaven line supports D&D type games. Just 100 modern characters would support a modern roleplaying game better than Dark Heaven and Warlord combined support D&D. Now of course you could branch out as much as you wanted but I'm talking about the number of minis needed to support a genre well. You could in theory make any historic adventure genre line as big as Dark Heaven or Warlord but you wouldn't have to to provide good support. Do you folks at Reaper seriously have no interest in supporting anything but the fantasy genre even though it's nearly impossible to support it well?

 

That is what makes it so nice. By fantasy being so broad you can produce a lot of stuff and competition isn't as large of an impact on your bottom line (and you don't end up competing with yourself either). With more limited genres, you don't have as many options and selling minis becomes harder. For example, how many variations on sky pirate type minis might you sell? Male/female. Hands on hips. Gun drawn. Maybe one sitting for use in vehicles? Now consider something simple like a fantasy elf. Male/female. Warrior/magic user/thief/priest... Armored(various types of armor)/bikini/robed/street clothes... Weapons... Shield... Wand/books/amulets... It is easier to work with the elf than the sky pirate without running into direct competition from other companies. Sci-fi definitely has more options than pulp does...but what sci-fi theme do you follow? Mad Max future? Robotech future? Star Wars future? One style doesn't really mesh well with the next so by shooting for a given genre, they miss out on the other. If they go for an exceptionally generic mini trying to capture them all - it will likely fail and they will loose all the genres.

 

Could Reaper still do it and make a profit. Sure, but I think they would have to use direct sales as opposed to distributer/retailer on those lines. Reaper has said a number of times they prefer the brick and mortar stores for various reasons, so I don't know if that will be too likely.

_____________

 

BTW - Iron Wind has a lot of different Sci-fi suitable minis from Partha's Shadow Run line. They are OK minis (good for the time they came out). But like most of that genre (even overseas) you don't find it on the shelves of most game stores.

[Ironworker]

Yes I'm well aware of the buisness reasons. Perhaps I should just give up on gameing in the U.S. With the profit only U.S. mentality even among the players nothing interesting will ever get supported here. Meh.... Let's all bow to the gods of big and soleless buisness.

[Joe Kutz]

Reaper peeps need their wings...they cost money.

 

I don't mind dealing with online companies (I've got a large selection of minis for Pulp era and Sci-fi...in all its flavors). I am just glad that they sell online, otherwise I would really be up a creek without a paddle.

[Ironworker]

Reaper peeps need their wings...they cost money.

 

I don't mind dealing with online companies (I've got a large selection of minis for Pulp era and Sci-fi...in all its flavors). I am just glad that they sell online, otherwise I would really be up a creek without a paddle.

 

I buy online because I have to not because I like to. Buying on line does nothing to support local shops. I like local shops. I like to go in and pick up a few packs at a time. I like to play at local shops and meet new gamers. I like how local shops bring new people to the hobby. Online companies do not do any of those things.

 

We have this saying Joe I'm sure you have ehard. You have to do the things you hate to be able to do the things you love. Thing is in buisness small or large people loose sight of the "do the things you love" part of it and only do the things that make the most money even if they are not even remotely the things they love. Doing the things that make the most money becomes the only thing that matters. New ideas become threats to them because they arn't proven profit makers so they come up with any excuse to squash those ideas even if those ideas really appeal to them on a personal level. So they become soleless.

[Joe Kutz]

Reaper peeps need their wings...they cost money.

 

I don't mind dealing with online companies (I've got a large selection of minis for Pulp era and Sci-fi...in all its flavors). I am just glad that they sell online, otherwise I would really be up a creek without a paddle.

 

I buy online because I have to not because I like to. Buying on line does nothing to support local shops. I like local shops. I like to go in and pick up a few packs at a time. I like to play at local shops and meet new gamers. I like how local shops bring new people to the hobby. Online companies do not do any of those things.

 

We have this saying Joe I'm sure you have heard. You have to do the things you hate to be able to do the things you love. Thing is in business small or large people loose sight of the "do the things you love" part of it and only do the things that make the most money even if they are not even remotely the things they love. Doing the things that make the most money becomes the only thing that matters. New ideas become threats to them because they aren't proven profit makers so they come up with any excuse to squash those ideas even if those ideas really appeal to them on a personal level. So they become soulless.

 

I buy online because I like to, I also go to the local shop because I like to. I haven't been near a FLGS though since 1998 or there abouts. The local store here is hostile to anything which isn't remote controlled. But I still go in and spend a couple hundred a month to do my part in keeping the lights on.

 

More to the point though...I do the things I love for a song (for example most the stuff that I sell...I make less than minimum wage in actual profits, not because I need to, but to allow other people to enjoy their hobby more). I don't need to do anything (tech stocks in the 90s and the Florida real estate market ensured that...along with my retirement check from the gov'ment). However, I can not fault any company for wanting to stay in business.

 

Personally, not doing things you want to do in order to keep doing things for your employees and customers shows more soul than launching head long into something which is likely to loose money. I am sure that Reaper could definitely make more money than they are now, but they have come to a good balance between new products and profit. If they don't keep that balance in mind, the lights go out and Bryan goes hungry. Not only him, but also his family and everyone else who works for Reaper...and potentially it will effect distributors and game stores down the line (I know a number who were hit very hard when Partha went belly up).

 

As far as the new ideas go...Reaper has had them and continues to have them. From the first Reaper minis I bought oh so very long ago till now, they have expanded their lines a lot. CAV (sci-fi) and Warlord (different fantasy flavor) also were changes for them. The legendary encounters minis (I won't touch them for various reasons...) also are a change. Coming Soon^TM is Reich of the Dead. I look forward to their metal minis (the plastics will again be avoided by me). They should work well enough with my minis from Darkson and West Wind.

 

In a few years, Reaper might head towards pulp or a sci-fi genre. Hopefully what they do now though will allow to do that then.

[Ironworker]

I don't grudge them making money at all but they are well established in the Fantasy miniature genre. They have a huge line but it does have gaps but with D&Desque fantasy you will always have gaps. The only reason I'm running D&D personally is because my daughter wants to play D&D. It's like a bottomless pit though. I can't seem to get my collection right no matter how much crap I buy for it. Oh sure that's great for Reaper's profit but I've had my fill. If it were up to me I'd chuck all my fantasy crap into the lake and never look back.

 

Reaper axed AICOM and I'm not confident they won't do the same to ROtD though I'm trying to stay enthusiastic about it. They seem to fear the idea of branching out from fantasy even a little.

 

People have mentioned Brigade and yeah they look interesting but their quality seems to be all ove the board both in the sculpts and their pictures of them. They don't even have pictures for all the stuff in their own line on their site and no shops carry their product so I can't see it first hand.

[Joe Kutz]

People have mentioned Brigade and yeah they look interesting but their quality seems to be all ove the board both in the sculpts and their pictures of them. They don't even have pictures for all the stuff in their own line on their site and no shops carry their product so I can't see it first hand.

 

Hopefully once the domain transfer gets done I'll be able to fix that. Right now I have about 3 gigs of photos from different manufacturers that I am working on getting all to the same relative picture scale (15 pixels per mm). That way you can look at minis and compare them size wise to different manufacturers minis. Lots of stuff from a lot of different companies - plus I plan on having links to the companies who currently produce them. The images are big enough that you will be able to see sculpture quality and what not (unlike a lot of the thumbnail sized images you see now). Once I get that squared away, I may go back and add turntable images so you can see the whole mini (that would likely be a slow process though...take away from fishing time you know).

 

Right now though, since the host is still up in the air (currently up...though I still haven't managed to get in touch with anyone breathing there), I don't want to upload a bunch of stuff only to have to do it again in a week or so.

 

BTW - Reaper hasn't axed (AFAIK) AICom...it just isn't out yet. Since the material isn't licensed - I assume they could put it in production any time they want. I would love it if they did (I could care less about the rules...I normally use a set of my own design for games anyway), but I am content to enjoy what is out.

[Ironworker]

People have mentioned Brigade and yeah they look interesting but their quality seems to be all ove the board both in the sculpts and their pictures of them. They don't even have pictures for all the stuff in their own line on their site and no shops carry their product so I can't see it first hand.

 

Hopefully once the domain transfer gets done I'll be able to fix that. Right now I have about 3 gigs of photos from different manufacturers that I am working on getting all to the same relative picture scale (15 pixels per mm). That way you can look at minis and compare them size wise to different manufacturers minis. Lots of stuff from a lot of different companies - plus I plan on having links to the companies who currently produce them. The images are big enough that you will be able to see sculpture quality and what not (unlike a lot of the thumbnail sized images you see now). Once I get that squared away, I may go back and add turntable images so you can see the whole mini (that would likely be a slow process though...take away from fishing time you know).

 

Right now though, since the host is still up in the air (currently up...though I still haven't managed to get in touch with anyone breathing there), I don't want to upload a bunch of stuff only to have to do it again in a week or so.

 

BTW - Reaper hasn't axed (AFAIK) AICom...it just isn't out yet. Since the material isn't licensed - I assume they could put it in production any time they want. I would love it if they did (I could care less about the rules...I normally use a set of my own design for games anyway), but I am content to enjoy what is out.

 

 

Well that would be cool. I'd like to see some good pics of Brigade's stuff.

 

I'm pretty sure the official word on AICOM is that's it's on hold indefenately. I too was mostly interested in the minis for use in Sci-fi games. I would have purchased every single green they posted for that game.

[SaintRigger]

That is what makes it so nice. By fantasy being so broad you can produce a lot of stuff and competition isn't as large of an impact on your bottom line (and you don't end up competing with yourself either). With more limited genres, you don't have as many options and selling minis becomes harder. For example, how many variations on sky pirate type minis might you sell? Male/female. Hands on hips. Gun drawn. Maybe one sitting for use in vehicles? Now consider something simple like a fantasy elf. Male/female. Warrior/magic user/thief/priest... Armored(various types of armor)/bikini/robed/street clothes... Weapons... Shield... Wand/books/amulets... It is easier to work with the elf than the sky pirate without running into direct competition from other companies. Sci-fi definitely has more options than pulp does...but what sci-fi theme do you follow? Mad Max future? Robotech future? Star Wars future? One style doesn't really mesh well with the next so by shooting for a given genre, they miss out on the other. If they go for an exceptionally generic mini trying to capture them all - it will likely fail and they will loose all the genres.

 

I'm not so sure this is a valid arguement. I understand your point, and agree with it - but when you talk fantasy, you talk "Fighter,Wizard, Theif" which would be more akin to Sky Pirate, Zeppelin Troopers, Reporters. A more direct analogy would be "How many bloody wizards with pointy hats and staffs do fantasy players need" and the answer, surprisingly is - alot. I find that fantasy players are really picky about their characters.

 

"I want a wizard. He has a pointy hat and a staff. Oh, and the staff has to be in the right hand, this one is in th left hand. And he has to have an owl as a familiar. No, a barn owl. And he has a book he carries on his hip, this one has a flask...."

 

On the other hand - the reaper DHL line doesn't stick to one particular theme, either and I think that is one of its strengths. I was talking to some guys in the shop, and they all agree that the line is brilliant because it has something for everyone. Like dudes covered in big armor, and skulls? You can find it. Want cheesy manga inspired figures, they go it. Want something retro-ish looking that looks like figures from the 80's? Sure. Something more up to date? Sure. Want a whole army of androgynous characters with the same face looking at the same body part? You got it. If you can't find it in the DHL line, it either doesn't exist or is comming "Soon"

 

Sci-fi and moderns could use a similar line, actually. They could have a few mad max warriors, and mech pilots, and armored troopers and bruts in trench coats. Someone would pick them up and use them for their games.

[Joe Kutz]

I'm not so sure this is a valid arguement. I understand your point, and agree with it - but when you talk fantasy, you talk "Fighter,Wizard, Theif" which would be more akin to Sky Pirate, Zeppelin Troopers, Reporters. A more direct analogy would be "How many bloody wizards with pointy hats and staffs do fantasy players need" and the answer, surprisingly is - alot. I find that fantasy players are really picky about their characters.

 

In my example, the reason I skipped to class as opposed to race is that most pulp settings don't have creatures other than humans. Some steam punk do, as do some sci-fi...but in regards to pulp, it is normally humans and more humans (with pygmies thrown in for fun...though they are human as well). Just removing a single configuration option from the equation greatly reduces the number of individual configurations which you might have (if for example you had 4 races, 4 weapons and 4 dress styles...that would give you a potential of 64 minis - if you remove race you are limited to 16 minis).

 

The flavor of the DHL line though works across the board. When I take 2100 series minis and set them down next to 3100 series minis, they don't look out of place. However when I take a GW space marine, a Copplestone "MIB" and an Infinity Nomad - they don't mesh well with each other. All are sci-fi, but the flavor of each is exclusive of the others (there are some which would work together; for example GW IG work with most...but they don't have much sci-fi to them other than the guns). Fantasy art, fiction and gaming has never really had the division like sci-fi (as hard as WotC tried to drive a wedge in there). You can normally mix it up just fine.

[rgtriplec]

...and potentially it will effect distributors and game stores down the line (I know a number who were hit very hard when Partha went belly up).

 

Actually Ral Partha didn't go belly up they were bought by another company and the license rights to their products were divided and sold to other companies. When FASA/Ral Partha sold their licenses in 2001, the buyers were Ral Partha Europe, Iron Wind Metals and Wizkids Games. All have been producing Ral Partha products or new products based on the RP licenses almost since the doors to RP closed.

 

The entire RP line has pretty much always been available and still is.

[TaleSpinner]

We have this saying Joe I'm sure you have ehard. You have to do the things you hate to be able to do the things you love. Thing is in buisness small or large people loose sight of the "do the things you love" part of it and only do the things that make the most money even if they are not even remotely the things they love. Doing the things that make the most money becomes the only thing that matters. New ideas become threats to them because they arn't proven profit makers so they come up with any excuse to squash those ideas even if those ideas really appeal to them on a personal level. So they become soleless.

 

So start your own mini company. Buy a vulcanizer and a spincaster. Hire a sculpter and make your pulp/sci fi minis.

 

Reaper isn't soulless for producing fantasy minis. It is their core business. Think about it, if their true love was Sci Fi., would their name be Reaper? Don't see too many angels of death appearing on the Melinium Falcon. Would their mascot be a succubus? Can you just see Sopie rescuing Indiana Jones from a pit of snakes?

 

You say to do what one loves, cost be d@#*ed, but for some reason you don't accomodate that Reaper loves Fantasy. It has (to my knowledge) been the core of their business since they were founded. Why should they change their core buisiness model away from their passion, especially when the majority of their customers play Fantasy.

 

So, you want more US made, nonfantasy minis. Fine, make them. Start a company. It is your love, not necessarily Reaper's. So do it. And don't complain about the startup cost, because you already said that one must make sacrifices for the things they love. So do it, and if there is a market, you may even break even in a few years and possibly make money, not that such things matter you you, since it is a labor of love.

 

TS

[kristof65]

wow IW - I thought for a bit there this conversation was going to be strictly you and I.

 

...and potentially it will effect distributors and game stores down the line (I know a number who were hit very hard when Partha went belly up).

 

Actually Ral Partha didn't go belly up they were bought by another company and the license rights to their products were divided and sold to other companies. When FASA/Ral Partha sold their licenses in 2001, the buyers were Ral Partha Europe, Iron Wind Metals and Wizkids Games. All have been producing Ral Partha products or new products based on the RP lisences almost since the doors to RP closed.

 

The entire RP line has pretty much always been available and still is.

But not readily. While FASA is still around as an IP holder, and the Ral Partha products are mainly still available through other outlets, the perception of the masses is that both companies and their products are dead and buried. The products of both are not readily available in most FLGS. Which pretty much validates some of the things that have been said in this thread, about the state of gaming here.

 

Sci-fi and moderns could use a similar line, actually. They could have a few mad max warriors, and mech pilots, and armored troopers and bruts in trench coats. Someone would pick them up and use them for their games.

I agree with this 100%. What really surprises me is Reapers stance on this, too. From what I've seen, it doesn't look like they'll ever do a modern or sci-fi line in 28mm. Sure, such a line probably wouldn't make near the income as the DHL line, but I'm guessing it could at least justify it's existence, like the Townsfolk packs do. And it appears that testing the water on this wouldn't even be that hard - start the line off with the AICOMM figs that have already been sculpted - I'm guessing those greens have already been bought and paid for, why not get some return investment on them? After that, 1-2 releases a month wouldn't be overwhelming, and I'm sure that retailers would at least pick them up for their new release section because they're from Reaper, even if they don't carry the whole line at first. Heck, a weapons pack or two would even make it easier for people to convert DHL or WL figs to modern/futuristic.

[Heisler]

You say to do what one loves, cost be d@#*ed, but for some reason you don't accomodate that Reaper loves Fantasy. It has (to my knowledge) been the core of their business since they were founded. Why should they change their core buisiness model away from their passion, especially when the majority of their customers play Fantasy.

 

So, you want more US made, nonfantasy minis. Fine, make them. Start a company. It is your love, not necessarily Reaper's. So do it. And don't complain about the startup cost, because you already said that one must make sacrifices for the things they love. So do it, and if there is a market, you may even break even in a few years and possibly make money, not that such things matter you you, since it is a labor of love.

 

TS

 

Actually, I'm almost positive that Reaper started life as an historical miniatures company. Which probably means that doing Reich of the Dead is almost a return to their roots.

[matsumoto]

I buy online because I have to not because I like to. Buying on line does nothing to support local shops. I like local shops. I like to go in and pick up a few packs at a time. I like to play at local shops and meet new gamers. I like how local shops bring new people to the hobby. Online companies do not do any of those things.

Ironworker, good show!!!

 

let me say i've become an online buyer becasue the average idaho city is a drollpit of economic fallout..the only economy we have here is rich people buying property and keeping construction folk in business! the art community in pocatello is infested by hippie-types, and the rest of Idaho by naturalists who could do better as wildlife photographers (something i could do in a split!...should i wish) our only game store is in Idaho falls, 48 miles over fields from my present position, the only other one beign a small-time store in Rupert (which i don't even know where to find...where's me map?...)

(BTW: A Street, you rock out!!!! hang in there!!!)

 

the average town in this state is less than 1k in population and usually filled with rednecks or religiousites.

gaming is a hard road here.

especially since the shoshone casino uses that term for gambling. ergh!

 

in Pocatello, the most liberal city, gaming is pretty trendy, as you can find gamers, but find someone who wants to play something other than 40k, DnD, or magic. or heroclix, ahem....

i've converted 4 or so to L5R...at least that is a start

no one will do CAV...as anyone with taste for mechs pulls out classic BT. (or new mechwarrior clix.ergh!)

Warlord has dropped to me, Ugluk, and his son. and guess how those battles play out?

 

lemme say that gaming diversity in the US is determined by desire of population to do so...

i like samurai and air combat, and historicals

you like pulp and sci-fi...

unless you're demographically positioned, it's gonna be tough to find 8 others who are....

 

Side Comments:

Reaper isn't soulless, they are niche. but i will say i have definitely gone from being a reaperite to being mercenary..in the name of diversity mind you, not profits...

hell, to put it straight, GW (yes i say this) isn't souless, but the soul it has is closer to a demon than a lovable human being...

 

 

On the attitude of gamers and Companies:

In my honest opinion, Americans Suck . we could have done something with ourselves after the cultural revolution of the 50's/60's as opposed to being typically ADD, Whiny, Lazy, and generally selfish. I've also discovered that despite the obvious "what you see on TV is not real" tons of us believe the mixed media message drivel...some even try to live like that, and end up with a life of chaos

we could use a return to family names meaning something, or honorable achievements, or community and brotherhood without propaganda..actually caring for those we live with...those kind of folk get on the news in this country...the 98% rest of us watch cable and porn...

let us be not decadent romans, but the ones that inspire thought and pride...

America needs to find it's soul again...and feed it well...

 

this is a good topic...