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"Heroic Scale" Has No Historical Precedent


Madog Barfog
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Look at Napoleon, Hitler, Schwarzenegger, Rambo, - pretty much any "heroic" person/character

 

Anyone else here concerned that his list of "heroes" starts off with Napoleon and Hitler, and just keeps getting worse?

 

Seriously though, the 25mm is just a number, what matters is relative scale. You say you have a dwarf that's larger then a human figure. If that bothers you, that's your prerogative, then replace one or the other. And since every manufacturer uses their own scales, sometimes multiple scales, you have to decide if having a true scale means more then the options of buying from multiple lines and multiple makers. No need to go online and gripe about it. But, given the choice between sticking to an arbitrary number scale, and having very detailed, very interesting mini's; I'd choose the detail anyday. I'm assuming the human is more true to the 25mm scale then the dwarf. If the dwarf was, can you imagine how little detail they could fit on? I wouldn't even bother buying it, because I know I couldn't paint what little (pun intended) detail they could put in.

 

If you want to be more exacting then the rest on scales, that's all good; but at the same time, you have to realize that creating miniatures is more of an art then an excersize in exactness, and that you can't reform a whole industry just because you care more for accuracy then everyone else.

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Let's keep this toy soldier stuff in perspective. When you consider you could be sittin' in a hum-vee in Bagh-dad, dodgin' improvised explosive devices and bullets, it really makes this thread pointless.

 

Buy what you like. Enjoy the games you like. If you don't like the models out there, learn to sculpt!! Applying logic and proportion to FANTASY and SCIENCE FICTION toy soldiers is like trying to polish a turd.

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So....how do you measure a Beholder?

 

If anything were to be made universal - it should simply be a 1/?? scale...or better still, just latch on to an existing scale like N, HO, S or O. Then you gain access to hundreds of additional figures, accessories and other stuff. I had always wondered why that wasn't done - way back when the first minis were cast.

 

Fantasy is just a waste of time. ;)

 

No, you'd factor for scale - plus most people aren't going to quibble if their beholder is 2-3mm off like they would if their towns guard didn't match their tower guard because of different measurements.

 

Same with dragons.

 

"OMG, I can't use this dragon, it is 4mm too short!"

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So, the average height of a human hundreds of years ago was much smaller than it is today, over a foot difference.

 

That's what, a 1/5" which is about 5 mm.

 

So the 25mm miniatures then, that are now around 30 mm have seen the same creep in size as human evolution has.

 

Sure it's not to the same time scale, but again, if size is scaled down so 5 feet = 1 inch, and we use that same scale for time dilation, the miniature world is actually moving slower than human evolution, since we'd have seen 500 years of change in average size of a human in about 8 years, and it's taken us more than that to go from true 25 mm to the 30-ish mm we see now.

Edited by Qwyksilver
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Whoa. Scale is a word that sculptors don't always pay attention to anyway. I know a guy who did sculpting for ZN games, Shockforce, Chronopia and Warzone, and when I asked him questions about scale back in those days, he said incredulously, "Scale? What scale?" They were just wingin' it back in the day.

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So, the average height of a human hundreds of years ago was much smaller than it is today, over a foot difference.

 

I suppose...if you're willing to take modern height towards the high end of the average, and historic height at the low end.

 

According to this source, average US male's height is 5'9". Over a foot difference would make our ancestors 4'9". The Roman Army FREX had a minimum height requirement (per this source Marius set a height requirement of 5'10" or about 5'8" by modern reckoning). Although you can argue a Roman legionary might be on the higher end of the scale, I have my doubts the Empire would be able to consistently recruit citizens (and have a need for approx 250,000 of them) at that height if the average was only 4'9"...

 

Damon.

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Look at Napoleon, Hitler, Schwarzenegger, Rambo, - pretty much any "heroic" person/character

 

Anyone else here concerned that his list of "heroes" starts off with Napoleon and Hitler, and just keeps getting worse?

 

 

Not heroes, "heroic" people, as in those who would make good villains or notable NPCs in your game. I know, you were joking, but I wanted to point that out.

 

 

Let's keep this toy soldier stuff in perspective. When you consider you could be sittin' in a hum-vee in Bagh-dad, dodgin' improvised explosive devices and bullets,

 

Not me, I'm too old.

 

Buy what you like. Enjoy the games you like. If you don't like the models out there, learn to sculpt!! Applying logic and proportion to FANTASY and SCIENCE FICTION toy soldiers is like trying to polish a turd.

 

I don't have enough artistic ability to sculpt. It just can't be.

 

However, there definitely IS a fair amount of logic and proportion in fantasy and sci-fi. If the story has no internal logic, the suspension of disbelief is quickly broken. When a dwarf is as tall as a human, something is wrong. If you were reading a story and it said "then the dwarf reached up and picked a bird's nest out of the top of the oak" you'd go "did they mean giant?"

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However, there definitely IS a fair amount of logic and proportion in fantasy and sci-fi. If the story has no internal logic, the suspension of disbelief is quickly broken. When a dwarf is as tall as a human, something is wrong. If you were reading a story and it said "then the dwarf reached up and picked a bird's nest out of the top of the oak" you'd go "did they mean giant?"

 

This is true, especially moreso in Science Fiction. SF can encompass a much broader range of subject matter than Star Wars FREX...

 

Damon.

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Look at Napoleon, Hitler, Schwarzenegger, Rambo, - pretty much any "heroic" person/character

 

Anyone else here concerned that his list of "heroes" starts off with Napoleon and Hitler, and just keeps getting worse?

Heroic sure seems to be used to mean 'larger than life' in Reapertown.

 

 

Seriously though, the 25mm is just a number, what matters is relative scale. You say you have a dwarf that's larger then a human figure. If that bothers you, that's your prerogative, then replace one or the other. And since every manufacturer uses their own scales, sometimes multiple scales, you have to decide if having a true scale means more then the options of buying from multiple lines and multiple makers. No need to go online and gripe about it.
Going online and griping about it is a VERY good idea when the manufacture names the scale specifically to make retailers and customers believe the figure WAS in a specific scale.
What is 25mm "Heroic Scale" and what does it mean?

 

 

 

The answer goes back to the mid 90's when we launched the DHL line. While attending a trade show in New Orleans, retail stores owners that came by would ask the scale of the new line. I would reply "28-30mm". Their reply would be to tell me that they do not have the space or the desire to support a new "scale" in their store and would stick with the 25mm currently on the market. Realizing they did not understand how the scale was applied or what it meant, but at the same time not wanting to lie to them, I started using the phrase "Heroic Scale 25mm" They then loved it and started buying.

Funny way of not wanting to lie, but scowling summed it up better long ago...

 

"25mm Heroic scale" is meaningless adspeak, like calling a 72 ounce Super Big Gulp a "24 ounce Heroic size drink". Just because you call it 24 ounces doesn't make it 24 ounces.
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Well, all this wailing and gnashing of teeth is going to get really interesting in the future as more companies are going "32 mm Heroic".

 

I don't know when Ed Pugh made that quote about 25mm heroic and retailers, but I'm guessin' it was long ago, in the early days of Reaper; it's twenty aught seven now. I'd say that's plenty of historical precedent in these jet set times.

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