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On p. 70 a Flight Section is clearly defined as 2 Gunships of any Model Role.

 

It does not include any other type of Model. The fact that Transport Gunships can carry infantry is irrelevant.

 

On p. 117 it says Orbital Gunship Insertion is only available for a Flight Section.

 

I don't know how much clearer it can be.

 

If your trying to have the models act using the same initiative card you are absolutely correct, it is very clear. What if they are two different sections. See my above post. Is it your position that if a Gunship/Transport model is in a flight section that they lose the benefit of using the Transport SA at any time?

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No, I'm not. If you want to have your gunship transports orbitally insert onto a battlefield and then pick up some infantry, that's fine by all the rules in the book. It's the notion that you can orbitally insert your gunship transports with infantry in them that doesn't fly (no pun intended).

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No, I'm not. If you want to have your gunship transports orbitally insert onto a battlefield and then pick up some infantry, that's fine by all the rules in the book. It's the notion that you can orbitally insert your gunship transports with infantry in them that doesn't fly (no pun intended).

 

Despite your lack of an intended pun I still got a chuckle ::P: . I'll agree that the notion of it smacks of game balance issues but I'd rather that come to light now than later, once the final rule book is done because as it reads now I fall on the side of allowing it.

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Actually it was never our intention to restrict transports in a flight from carrying infantry. I will double check that with the powers that be to make sure that was their vision as well.

 

Damage should be applied at the end of the activation, unless specifically specified that it should be applied sooner. All of the examples assume that the end step of applying damage is at the end of the activation

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Wow, did this really blow up! And naturally two different arguments are going on in the same thread, making things even harder to read. Let's see...

 

Flight Section, Infantry and Orbital Insertion

You can not purchase Infantry as part of a Flight Section. A Flight is 2 Gunships, any kind, no more no less.

You can buy a Flight of two Gunship/Transport Models (w/the Orbital Insertion Upgrade), and a Rifle Section of 6 Rifle Teams.

You can, during the Deployment Phase, use the Model States rule to declare that 4 of your Rifle Teams are mounted inside of your Gunship/Transports. The other 2 Rifle Teams will have to be deployed as normally, or else placed inside yet another Transport.

You can, during the game, then Deploy the Flight using the Orbital Insertion Upgrade, which happens to have the Rifle Teams inside of them.

 

You can not do what Papabees attempted in his original post, simply because the Gunships and Infantry have different Initiative Cards. He would have to use one Init Card to deploy the Gunships and move into B2B with the target, then wait until his next Init Card for the Rifle Teams to perform a Dismount and their Close Combat. If the opponent got an Init Card before the Infantry could Dismount, he would be free to move the target away from the gunship (if it hadn't previously activated) or shoot the Gunships with some of his other models.

 

When is damage applied

There are only 2 people who can say what the "intent" of the rules were: MLH and Ed. Since Michael is no longer a Reaper employee, his intentions no longer apply, which leaves the decision up to Ed. The rules for Ranged Attacks, Defensive Fire and Close Combat are very specific as to when damage is applied. We will consult with Ed and get a final ruling on Strikes, Assets and any other way I can think of that damage is applied.

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Wow, did this really blow up! And naturally two different arguments are going on in the same thread, making things even harder to read. Let's see...

 

Flight Section, Infantry and Orbital Insertion

You can not purchase Infantry as part of a Flight Section. A Flight is 2 Gunships, any kind, no more no less.

You can buy a Flight of two Gunship/Transport Models (w/the Orbital Insertion Upgrade), and a Rifle Section of 6 Rifle Teams.

You can, during the Deployment Phase, use the Model States rule to declare that 4 of your Rifle Teams are mounted inside of your Gunship/Transports. The other 2 Rifle Teams will have to be deployed as normally, or else placed inside yet another Transport.

You can, during the game, then Deploy the Flight using the Orbital Insertion Upgrade, which happens to have the Rifle Teams inside of them.

 

You can not do what Papabees attempted in his original post, simply because the Gunships and Infantry have different Initiative Cards. He would have to use one Init Card to deploy the Gunships and move into B2B with the target, then wait until his next Init Card for the Rifle Teams to perform a Dismount and their Close Combat. If the opponent got an Init Card before the Infantry could Dismount, he would be free to move the target away from the gunship (if it hadn't previously activated) or shoot the Gunships with some of his other models.

 

Ok, so I can buy 2 Condors with Orbital Insertion and Increased Transport, buy a platoon of 4 Armored Rifle teams (Bulky SA counts as 2, so I have more than the minimum 6) drop the gunships on the bad guy on one card activation and then deploy the infantry on a second card activation. Yes?

 

Ok, the key as I see it is to use Cavs or vehicles to pin the target in place and then perform the Orbital Insertion this way if the enemy gets an Init card before my Infantry do, he will have to decide who to attack, the units pinning him or the Transports dropping behind him.

 

When is damage applied

There are only 2 people who can say what the "intent" of the rules were: MLH and Ed. Since Michael is no longer a Reaper employee, his intentions no longer apply, which leaves the decision up to Ed. The rules for Ranged Attacks, Defensive Fire and Close Combat are very specific as to when damage is applied. We will consult with Ed and get a final ruling on Strikes, Assets and any other way I can think of that damage is applied.

 

This would be appreciated, since it does make a big difference if one attack is at the targets original stats, and a following attack in the same activation can use the reduced stats. I would foresee lots of "shot stacking" ahead if that does turn out to be the case, with people being very careful to keep heavy weapons available to shoot so they can take advantage of damage just done by another unit in their task force. That happens now, but not all in the same activation.

 

It should be a simple concept, the rules state that "All damage is applied after all Ranged Attacks and Defensive Fire have been resolved".

I could see minefields being resolved in the movement phase, but everything else IS either a Ranged Attack, Defensive Fire or Close Combat and in all those cases damage is applied to all combatants after Defensive Fire is completed.

 

It seems pretty clear to me, but I didn't write the game so we need an official answer.

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Actually it was never our intention to restrict transports in a flight from carrying infantry. I will double check that with the powers that be to make sure that was their vision as well.

 

Damage should be applied at the end of the activation, unless specifically specified that it should be applied sooner. All of the examples assume that the end step of applying damage is at the end of the activation

 

Are you saying the intent of the rules are:

 

1 - I call in a strike, damaging a CAV down 2 data tracks from full health- this damage is not applyed yet. If it was enough damage to kill it, it is still standing there, blocking LOS to the Recon vehicle behind it.

 

2 - I then do a shot on the run with another model in the same section, shooting the same target CAV, putting 2 more points of damage on it. He then shoots back, still at full health, damaging me. I finish my move at my new, lower, movement rate.

 

3 - then the Strike damage is applied?

 

That makes no sense to me - you have to track how much damage is being dealt during the turn, but not apply it? I know I will get confused whether that die next to a model has been 'applied' or not.

 

Mike

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I always presumed that damage resolution worked just like it has in that other RAGE game, and the analogy between attack methods is fairly accurate mechanically, although the fluffy parts for how is different.

 

Strike = Magic

DA/IA = Ranged

CC = Melee

 

And damage is resolved differently for each type of attack. Yes it's not Warlord, but it's all based off the same system, so I would presume that the mechanic would work accordingly even though the fluff is different.

 

Otherwise, why would anyone ever bother to mix up Model types in sections since it just kills the entire tactical concept of softening up a target.

 

RE: The orbital insertion owning of a CAV. Look at how many points is being spent on that one shot kill. It's not like that will be something that can be done repeatedly in a game. 2 Kraken with Orbital Insertion plus the 6 Armored Infantry with 4 Satchel charges costs 1080 points (876 with Beta costs). That should take out even a super heavy. And then all those models are just sitting out in the open waiting for utter annihilation, which will likely occur the moment your opponent next activates..

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Actually it was never our intention to restrict transports in a flight from carrying infantry. I will double check that with the powers that be to make sure that was their vision as well.

 

Damage should be applied at the end of the activation, unless specifically specified that it should be applied sooner. All of the examples assume that the end step of applying damage is at the end of the activation

That may very well have been the intent. The problem is that I can't find anywhere in the book where it says that damage is applied at the end of the activation, to include examples. Close combat doesn't have an example.

 

Just to throw another wrinkle into the issue, is there a difference in the various action resolutions from the downloaded version and the starter set CD version?

 

What about repairs, whether from the models inherent ability to do so or engineers with repair modules? Is the repaired damage applied at the end of the action or at the end of the activation?

 

I think another part of the problem is that there is no one really managing CAV. Yeah, Ed make proclamations here and there, but he's also trying to keep the company running, deal with distributors, developing new and existing lines etc etc etc. IMNSHO, Reaper needs to have a person who's job it is to manage RAGE and its games and doesn't come anywhere near the casting side of the house.

 

Until the errata is released I'm playing the way I have been. If the Deathseekers come, I'll let them babysit the boys and they'll wish they hadn't made the drive.

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I just spoke with Ed on the phone. Damage from Strikes is applied after all Strikes have been resolved.

 

Example of Appropriate Use

Bill activates his Recon Section, consisting of 4 models. He declares that all 4 models will Move, then 2 will call in Orbital Pinpoint Strikes against a Dictator 70, while the other two will perform Ranged Attacks against it. Bill moves his models and decides to resolve the Strikes first. Four of the Strike's 6 attack rolls are successes, leaving the Dictator on DT 4. Bill's other two models now resolve their Ranged Attacks against the Dictator, using its DT 4 stats. The Dictator will get to perform Defensive Fire against one of the Recon Models, again using its DT 4 stats.

 

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Damage from Minefields are applied immediately after their Attack Rolls are resolved, and can effect the damaged model's actions, just like in the "Ranged Attacks While Performing Movement" section on page 87.

 

If anyone can think of any other non-Ranged Attack items that can cause damage, please let me know and we'll get them addressed. I've already put Overdrive on my list.

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