Rage chronicles 2008

[rgtriplec]

For myself, I've found that the Warlord factions seem pretty balanced as is. I'd love to see the mercs get some large monsters **cough**dragons**cough*** but I also don't want things wacked out of balance, either.

 

I think getting some monsters or big solos would actually make the mercs more in balance. As is none have fliers, burrowers, cavalry, or monsters and only the default list has FAs.

[Saint Vierzehn]

- Mercs have no monsters at all, on any size base.

 

 

Mercs have minotaurs and lupine ragers. That Herryk Aesir doesn't get his smite(monster) against them is only another bonus and a technicality of the rules.

 

Furthermore, with the Change of Heart rule, mercs have access to EVERY MONSTER IN THE GAME.

 

If that's not enough monster mash for you, you should probably go play Darkspawn or Elves instead of Mercs.

 

Furthermore, adding more monsters (especially a dragon) to the merc list is a particularly bad idea if the "+mercs" rule is ever implemented, because people could start doubling up on some really whacky stuff. You might start seeing lists with nothing that didn't fly, burrow, or stand on a base bigger than 1 inch square. With +mercs in effect, a monster on the merc list would be added to all lists.

 

-StV.

[Saint of Sinners]

More Lupines!

 

Spear-chuckin' lupines...

 

sneaky shadow lupines...

 

female lupines...

 

Solitaire lupines...

 

maybe even a wolf pack loyal to the lupines...

[Saint Vierzehn]

This isn't excatly a data card, but it is something that I would like to see added to the game.

 

I would like a level 1 counterspell and a level 3 counterspell, and I would like to see the radius of counterspells made larger.

 

-StV.

[spiritual_exorcist]

Giants/Monsters:

- Mercs have nothing on a Giant Sized based.

- Overlords and Crusaders have one each, while every other faction has at least two models on Giant bases.

- Mercs have no monsters at all, on any size base.

 

Spells:

- I'll second Glen's suggestions for the vermin and elemental summing spells. In fact, I'll expound on it from a business sense - spells that can be used to summon cool models will sell more minis, right? AFAIK, only one spell - Summon Spectral Minions - brings more models to the battlefield. I don't want to see summoned models taking over the game, but expand the ability to the good and neutral spell casters as well.

 

Giants/Monsters: Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't Mercs have access to every single Monster in the game? Not really sure we need to add more specifically to them. Not totally against the idea, but it would have to be something pretty special to convince me such a model was needed.

 

Spells: While I'd love to see a deeper variety of spells, summoned spells just don't appeal to me given that we a well established 'Summoned' Special ability that provides a mechanic for Magical summoning. The current mechanic ensures that summoned models are not unbalancing by forcing you to pay for the models you bring to the board. What I don't like about Summon Spectral minions is that is can be somewhat more cost effective than it should be given that Even summoning just 3 Minions is well worth 30 points, let alone 4 or 5, just compare Minions card to that of a Goblin to see what I mean. That being said I don't feel the spell is unbalancing given that it takes up spell slots and has a chance of failure.

Still, I would rather not see more of the same types of spells, instead, if you want more summoning in the game, why not continue to use the "Summoned" special ability mechanic, but offer up a range of models that are available to be summoned by Mages and Clerics of various factions. Say 1/2 a dozen of these 'generic' (for lack of a better term) datacards (Small Elemental, Mephit, Celestial or Infernal beings) that can be bought by any army that includes a model capable of summoning such a creature to the board. Make such models fairly wimpy, no more than 30-50 points, so that they add flavor but don't take away from the game. Make such models 'Adepts' so that they activate along with their summoner as part of a their troop (a mechanic that is in place currently, but does not have any models that utilize it as far as I know, seeing as how all 'Summoned' creatures in the game are currently Solos). If you wanted to limit their use you could stipulate that such 'generic' summoned creatures require they be summoned during game play and cannot begin the game on the board.

On current Datacards:

 

I really have to agree that a few models need their ranged attacks back (Freya would be cool, but Skralla really needs it, and I wish the Hill Giant still had his AEO attack, granted I would prefer it to be longer ranged, simulating the typical D&D Giant rock throwing attack as opposed to a long reaching club attack designers have listed as being the reason for the original ranged attack of the model. RAV 6, 12 inches, AOE/1, Critical shot/2 would be nifty, although possibly more expensive than I'd be willing to pay; It would make the Hill Giant unique however, and make it stand out from some of the other monsters).

 

I know we've had the CP debate before, but I still think most casters would benefit from a CP boost, even if it would force their points costs up. I don't want magic to dominate the game, but CP 5-6 Mages that are pretty commonplace in the game just arn't worth the risk of taking under most conditions simply because MD in the game is so bloody high on so many models (what about the lowly CP 4 casters, they arn't worth anything in this game). I'm sure many will point to Magic enhancements as the answer, put these are awefully expensive solutions to make Lunk (a once mid-level Mage in the game) even remotely formitable, let alone having to purchase spells on top of the upgrade. Hardly worth making Lunk a CP 6 Mage when he is DV 7 with 2 wound tracks.

[kristof65]

For those of you questioning my comments on things to add - please re-read the first portion of my post

 

Ok, I've been taking a look at some things, and here are some things that seem to be missing and/or ideas for things to add. These suggestions are based on casual observations of the various data cards, and are more from the perspective of someone new looking at the game:

 

Some of the things I've said, I truly want - more centaurs, and a Sisters sub-faction to be precise. Another thing I mentioned would be nice - more dragons, although I don't care who's lists they're in, just simply a bit more variety in dragon data cards, beyond the 2-3 there currently are (if you count Dragon Turtle and Hydra as dragons, otherwise it's one.)

 

The rest are based on conversations I've had over the years with numerous people about various game things and trying to take a look at the game from their perspective. Many of those people are former WFB players, so the suggestions are things to make the game appeal more to them (without becoming WFB). I also made some suggestions based on the perspective of people checking out the game simply by observing the data cards (and there are people who judge games that way - rightly or wrongly). Keep in mind that to the uninitiated, Mercs are a seperate faction.

 

All in all, most of the suggestions I made were more about improving Warlord's marketability to the uniformed. As for implementing them, I'm going to trust Gus and the rest of the Reaper crew to keep things in balance when deciding which, if any, of my suggestions to look at seriously (which is also why my suggestions were very generic).

[spiritual_exorcist]

Examples of possible generic Summoned models referred to in my previous post (I would include them under Upgrades in Rulebook perhaps)

Ice Mephit (adept/Neutral)

Tracks 3, Mov 5, DV 8, #MA 2, MAV: 4, RAV: 3, range 12, Marksman/3, Deflect/2, Summoned(Mage), Defensive Shot, Beast

 

Quasit (adept/Evil)

Tracks 3, Mov 6, DV 9, #MA 2, MAV 5, Frenzy, Tough/3, Poison Strike, Summoned(Mage), Fearsome, Smite(good)/1, Beast

 

Air Elemental, small (adept/Neutral)

Tracks 3, Move 10, Fly 10, DV 7, #MA 4, MAV 2, non-corporeal, Warmaster, Deflect/5, Raider/2, Summoned(Cleric), Ranger, Beast

 

Faerie Dragon (adept/Good)

Tracks 2, Move 4, Fly 12, DV 9, #MA 1, MAV 4, RAV: 5, range 6, Blowthrough, Summoned(Mage), Beast

 

Janni (Adept/Neutral)

Tracks 4, Move 5, Fly 8, DV 12, #MA 2, MAV 6, Raider/2, Deflect/1, Tough/2, Summoned(Cleric), Fearless

 

PseudoDragon (Adept/Neutral)

Tracks 3, Move 4, Fly 10, DV 9, #MA 1, MAV 5, First Strike, Disable, Summoned (Mage), Beast

 

Hag (Adept/Evil)

Tracks 4, Move 5, DV 9, #MA 2, MAV 5, Mage 2/4, CP: 6, Tough/1, Summoned(Cleric), Fearsome

 

Shadow (Adept/Neutral)

Tracks 3, Move 6, DV 10, #MA 2, MAV 4, Deflect/2, Non-corporeal, Backstab/2, Summoned (Cleric), Fearsome, Undead, Beast

 

 

@kristof65: Never hurts to throw out ideas, any counter-arguments or disagreement is far from personal, we're all entitled to our opinions, and whether or not I agree with various opinions, I want everyone tossing out any ideas they have, you never know what sorts of diamonds are lurking in the rough.

[Reinchard]

As a primarily WHFB player I'd like to second those posts, which warn of making Warlord closer to WHFB.

Unique flavour of Warlord concept makes it a really outstanding game, that should be preserved.

 

Crusaders:

1. I'd like to second the idea of paladin concept. Whether that would be heroes/solos or adepts, doesn't really matter, but I see for this role something based on Templar knight with heavily increased MD (may be also DV and other stats) and may be innate blessing, healing or something like that. Powerful heavily protected melee warriors on a par with Crimson knights, because crusaders lack such kind of extremely heavy infantry. They are to have special anti-evil abilities, be the Good in its essence. May be get bonuses for mercying. Whether should be a mounted variant, I don't know, but the flying one will be perfect. Although pegasi would make them resembling bretonnians too much.

2. They need a warmachine, really. And a powerful one, like trebuchet, to compensate a lack if shooting. Or as a variant - some altar of good, that'll give them increase of MD and DV/deflect (as that was already mentioned). Or give blessing in some AOE. When it's ok to reject shooting as non thematic, let's concentrate on defence from it, cleric abilities, as that was before.

3. May be something small & flying of angelic aspect. Angel-children, for example, to emphasize the holiness of templar's purpose. Melee with but small magical abilities, some harmless innate spell.

4. May be an inspired evil-hunting mob with torches and aspen stakes. Like existing town folk.

 

Necropolis:

1. What about something like Dread Reaper on a par with angel? Or a card for existing bone dragon.

2. Third warlord, better of the spectral origin. Something like very powerful banshee, with shooting ability of soul cannon with good protection and scaring effect, or abilities to summon tons of spectral minions. With a list to create spectral army.

3. Heavy cavalry, better on bone constructs.

4. Card for Dark Heaven's skeletal catapult.

5. What about flying (or very high Mov) vampires, either giving feeding to bats, or granting that to bloodseeker. Or bat swarms with feeding and disable.

6. Ah, ok, ability for female vampires to use their beauty - SA Seduce, for example. Working once per game for a vampire model against Dis of an enemy. While this vampire is alive, enemy model must behave as mercied. And for Judas - a variant of that, working especially on female enemy models? if they are beautiful, of course. :rolleyes:

Other variant is to get them hit with -1 if Dis test not passed.

7. What about a spell, raising ordinary undead skeletons/zombies. Either from the void, or from the freshly fallen enemies.

 

Darkspawn:

1. As a Dark Elves player I beg not to copy lizards. Why not spider theme? Spider swarms, spider centaurs or spider cavalry? Or a demonic variant with spawn resembling mounts. Might be burrowing creatures. And a mounted warlord.

2. What about fire throwing imps? Adept devils with whips (disable)? Demonic maidens with above mentioned seducing abilities?

3. New more delicate and fresh sculpt of the Witch Queen.

 

Razig:

1. Might be better to move him finally to mercenaries as a sub-faction? As second warlord is not adequate here, this hardly can be a separate faction on a par with others.

2. The only things to add could be more sea-thematic. What about mermaids of doom? Or maidens mounted on hippocampi?

A question remains what are they going to do on surface

 

Spells:

1. I second summoning ideas.

2. Why so little innate things now? Supporting and clerical spells can be cheaply enough made innate. That gives a model unique speciality and harly could break balance.

3. May be give more levels for things like Holy light, blessing with varied AOE? Cure with AOE removing different damage. Something, that increases DV/deflect in different AOE. Something attracting/improving shooting at a target.

4. Just really more faction specific spells and equipment.

 

I'll definitely not try to conceal the inspiration given by games like Age of wonders or Heroes 3.

 

P.S. What about reviving ideas of Moonscar court in some way?

[rgtriplec]

- Mercs have no monsters at all, on any size base.

 

 

Mercs have minotaurs and lupine ragers. That Herryk Aesir doesn't get his smite(monster) against them is only another bonus and a technicality of the rules.

 

Furthermore, with the Change of Heart rule, mercs have access to EVERY MONSTER IN THE GAME.

 

If that's not enough monster mash for you, you should probably go play Darkspawn or Elves instead of Mercs.

 

Furthermore, adding more monsters (especially a dragon) to the merc list is a particularly bad idea if the "+mercs" rule is ever implemented, because people could start doubling up on some really whacky stuff. You might start seeing lists with nothing that didn't fly, burrow, or stand on a base bigger than 1 inch square. With +mercs in effect, a monster on the merc list would be added to all lists.

 

-StV.

 

Well some of us hope that the Merc sublists, actually become sublists in form and not just name. So, only default mercs get every Monster in the game. Lupines aren't Monsters and neither are Minotaurs, they are adepts. A Monster as we been speaking of is a Troop type and not just a creature. So, as was said before none of the sublists have Monsters or big Solitaires.

 

As far as doubling up on whacky stuff most factions can already take two or three or four Monsters in any given build.

[spiritual_exorcist]

More thoughts:

 

Bag of Boulders, ranged upgrade (Reven, Hill Giant)

30 points/boulder, each giving a single RAV 6, AOE/1, Slow Fire, Range 12 (possible 18?) attack. Could possibly be used by other models, I just can't think of any that it fits but the Hill GIant off the top of my head.

 

We've had a few discussions about Faction specific spells and equipment, and I would certainly like to see alot more of that type of content, it is one of the few things I see where the previous edition of the game really stood out over the current one. I'll see if I can drag up a thread or two where we talked about such things because there have been some nice ideas.

 

Pretty decent thread with great ideas (mostly regarding magic items): http://www.reapermini.com/forum/index.php?...0items&st=0

 

Another thread similar to this one, but from right after RC 2007 release:

http://www.reapermini.com/forum/index.php?...0items&st=0

 

http://www.reapermini.com/forum/index.php?...5&hl=spells

 

I'm sure there were a few ideas also tossed around about various interesting spells that could be put into the game to make low level casters more cost effective, when we were bantering about low-level CP, but I can't find the thread.

 

Anyway onto more random ideas:

 

Necropolis:

 

Ghast Captain 4-8/0, 4 tracks, Mov 6, DV 10, #MA 3, Frenzy, Undead, Tough/3, Poison (Could use Vampiric feeding ability)

 

Greater Shadow Solo, 3 tracks, Mov 8, DV 9, #MA 3, MAV 6, Deflect/4, Raider/2, non-corporeal, Ranger, SHOCK, First Strike, Backstab/2, Undead, summoned(mage)

 

Overlords:

 

Mind Flayer Elite, 3-4 tracks, Mov 5, DV 9-10, #MA 1, MAV 4, RAV 7, range 6, Fearsome, Fearless, Beast, Critical Strike/4, Disable, Blowthrough, Slow Fire, Spy, Outrider

 

Reven:

 

Orc Soldier Adept, 3 tracks, Mov 5, DV 11, #MA 2, MAV 5, Deflect/1, Tough/1, Warmaster

[Hellsgate]

More female reptus, T'kay just always looks so lonely out there...

 

Dragon hatchlings (reptus, adept/solo) flyer, blowthrough... other than that, can't think of any "must haves" i'd think for them.

 

More force upgrates: Todem of [insert loosly linked name here]

[herzogbrian]

I would LOVE to see:

 

Vampire feeding made an invoked SA. Everyone else has to burn an attack action to Heal!!!

 

the Sisters sub-list out. They need some Cav as well.

 

a Darkspawn Shadow Dragon.

 

Bull Orc Cav.

 

Elven Maiden on Unicorn (Klocke/Garrity combo).

 

Elven Pegasus Knights (Royal Guards).

 

Goblins on Bats.

 

a fog AOE spell to give cover to block LOS and/or give cover vs Ranged attacks.

 

real terrain rules, ground scale, and the time a turn represents.

 

Just my 5p worth,

Brian

[Reinchard]

Vampire feeding made an invoked SA. Everyone else has to burn an attack action to Heal!!!

 

Somehow feeding barely affects the course of events. In a melee after initial round both sides have enough additional non-combat actions and enemy sucessfully loots own models to prevent feeding. Free of combat knight has to pay much time to walk around collecting corpses and will arrive to crucial place often too late.

 

The question is in the price of feeding in points. Now knights are extremely effective for their price and provoke often much thinking from the opponent.

 

On the other side, SA Healer for good melee model, like angel or gerard is less effective, because they have to choose, to heal or to fight. But that results accordingly in their price.

[Fruggs]

I dread the idea of warlord looking like WHFB. Why copycat? If someone wants a new game and they are already playing WHFB why would they choose a new game that has the same look?

 

I like the idea of crusaders getting harder hitting knights of some type, because they really can't compete against the crimson knights with the high damage tracks high MAV, high MA and vampiric feeding. I have a hard time even taking one or two down. Granted I am new but they really are hard to kill. The highest infantry MA crusaders have is 3 and that is battle nuns and they are soo squishy and the MAV is low. They are hardly worth bringing, and because they are normal troops you cant give them armor or any other defensive uppage aside from a totem.

The heavy cav models are about on par with the knights but they are 100 a piece, and don't have healing.

 

As for darkspawn, the spider idea is cool, or little demon beasts, but not anything like the cold ones. the bloodstone gnomes riding something would be cool.

 

 

More defensive magic spells aside from bolt and poison. Mages ought to be able to sling back hard.

 

More faction specific spells.

 

Amen to vampiric feeding bieng a SA. Or make the crimson knights cost more.

[Mojoman]

Ok... this may be totally wack, but here're my suggestions

 

I agree with Kristof that the Mercs need a Sisters sub-faction list.

 

And (here comes the wacko) the sublist should have a different FA than the standard Merc list. Drop the Luck, drop the CofH, add "Sisterhood FA". "Sisterhood FA" gives the benefits of troop musician and troop standard without requiring the equipment... what do you think?

 

I think there should be a sisters Spear and a sisters breaker as well.

 

-mojoman