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EST and CFP


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When a section is preparing to use a CFP can the CFP initiator use another model's EST bonus for his TC or is this a violation of the 'No Stacking' rule? Ex: A Specter uses an activation to lock in a CFP point. A Talon in the section initiates its EST. The CFP rules from the Errata specify that the CFP-er must first perform a Target Lock. The Specter has a TC 2 (undamaged). When calculating the Target Point roll does the Specter have to use his own TC only, does he add the Talon's TC 3 (undamaged) to his own, or does his Target Lock action serve to double the Talons 3? I was under the impression that using any part of the Talon's TC would violate the 'Multiple Target Lock bonuses do not stack' clause.

 

On the same topic does the 'Target' part of a Target Point Roll have to be a model? If you want to land IA on top of a enemy attack section can you say that your target point "...is a point directly in between the Warlord, Rhino, and Puma..." or do you have to nominate a model as the target point, defaulting to its center point? This reflects back on my first question as I'm under the impression that EST must be declared on a specific model, not on a point in space?

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How the stacking in this case would work:

 

1. Activate EST with a TC3 model.

2. TL with CFP model; note that actual TL does nothing, as it does not stack with the (larger) EST.

3. Roll for target point with TL from TC3 model, plus standard indirect modifiers from the CFP-er.

 

So, it only gives you a +1, since you'd have your own (probably +2) TL bonus anyway, and those don't stack.

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How the stacking in this case would work:

 

1. Activate EST with a TC3 model.

2. TL with CFP model; note that actual TL does nothing, as it does not stack with the (larger) EST.

3. Roll for target point with TL from TC3 model, plus standard indirect modifiers from the CFP-er.

 

So, it only gives you a +1, since you'd have your own (probably +2) TL bonus anyway, and those don't stack.

 

Ok so the equation without the Talon involved would be (assuming a short range shot):

 

Specter [TC 2, FRS/2, CFP] - Target Lock (TC 2 x 2) + FRS/2 = +6 to the Target Point Roll

 

But, if the Talon were using its EST pod (again assuming a short range shot):

 

Specter [TC 2, FRS/2, CFP] w/ Talon [TC 3, EST Pod] - Target Lock (TC 3 x 2) + FRS/2 = +8 to the Target Point roll

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In the case of doing a Target Lock with an EST equipped model, if your target point is the model your EST guy has designated you add (in your example) the Specter's TC 2 to the 3 provided by the Talon. If your target point is different, you simply double your TC value when making a Target Lock. But to get that extra +1, your target point would have to be the EST model.

 

If the Talon is the one doing a Target Point roll for purposes of using the CFP, if he did a Target Lock, his bonus to his target point roll would be +6 (TC 3 x 2). Once the Target Point roll is resolved, any other Model in that section with an IFM can chain-in for free and use that target point if they wish; they don't even need to Target Lock.

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I just realized a problem with this--TL/EST is a non-repeatable action, so the two models have to do it at the same time--so it doesn't work, period.

 

Core Rules (pg 76)

 

When conducting a Non-Repeatable Action of any type, all Models in the Active Section that are conducting the same type of Non-Repeatable Action must perform it at the same time.

 

EST and TL are not the 'same' action.

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Yes, they are. EST is triggered by a TL action by the carrier. "A Model with the EST SA that conducts a Target Lock Action will not only add its Target Lock bonus equal to its TC to all of its Attack Rolls versus that Model, it will also add this bonus to all friendly Models within an AOE."

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Yes, they are. EST is triggered by a TL action by the carrier. "A Model with the EST SA that conducts a Target Lock Action will not only add its Target Lock bonus equal to its TC to all of its Attack Rolls versus that Model, it will also add this bonus to all friendly Models within an AOE."

 

Almost right. EST means that the model performing the TL can extend the TL bonus to units nearby. EST is a modifier to the TL action, not an action.

An EST equipped model could just as easily perform a TL and NOT use the EST. All EST is doing is networking the units in the section to use one TL bonus.

It would most properly be termed an effect of the TL action, not the action itself. The action stack in question is possible and legal, timing the activations of the models is very important, but it is still legal under the rules since TL and CFP are NOT the same non-repeatable action, a model can TL in its activation and another model in the section can activate its CFP in its activation.

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But, if the Talon were using its EST pod (again assuming a short range shot):

 

Specter [TC 2, FRS/2, CFP] w/ Talon [TC 3, EST Pod] - Target Lock (TC 3 x 2) + FRS/2 = +8 to the Target Point roll

 

Edd,

The Talon's EST bonus would only apply to the TL part of the Spectre's firing solution. It would not affect the Spectre's innate TC value. Thus, the equation would look like this:

 

Specter [TC 2, FRS/2, CFP] w/ Talon [TC 3, EST Pod] =Target Lock (TC 3 From Talon) + TC 2 From Spectre statline + FRS/2 = +7 to the Target Point roll.

 

That TC 2 is innate to the firing model and cannot be altered by an outside source, like EST. The EST can only affect the TL bonus; normally the +2 we refer to as doubling.

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When a section is preparing to use a CFP can the CFP initiator use another model's EST bonus for his TC or is this a violation of the 'No Stacking' rule?

The Target Point Roll for a Chain Lock Pod is not part of a Ranged Attack and can not use the bonus from EST Pods. In the CFP's case, the Target Point Roll is a part of the Target Lock Action.

 

TL and CFP are NOT the same non-repeatable action, a model can TL in its activation and another model in the section can activate its CFP in its activation.

CFP is not a Non-Repeatable Action, its a Free Action and the only way to activate it is to perform a Target Lock Action, which gives you access to the Chain Lock Pod SA's rules. For timing issues, Free Actions triggered by another Action are considered to happen at the same time as the triggering action. So the EST, ECM and Chain Fire Pod's events resolve at the same time as the Model's Target Lock or Jamming Action.

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After this weekends Mega-Battle in Dayton we wanted to make sure we were doing this correctly. Assume I have a Kahn Activate his EST and all models in the section are under the umbrella:

 

1. Kahn activates EST and declares model "X" as the target.

2. My Sultan uses his CFP (upgrade) and declares model "X" as his target point

3. Sultan gets which of the following for his CFP roll?

 

A. Kahn's EST bonus of +3, Sultan's TC of +2, Sultan's FRS of +3 = total of +8 to target point roll

B. Kahn's TC of +3 (since it is the highest), Sultan's FRS +3 = +6 to target point roll

C. EST has no effect on Target point roll so just use the Sultan's TC of +2, FRS +3 = +5 to target point rol

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D. EST has not effect on the target point roll, so just the Sultan's TC of 2, TL of +2 and FRS +3 = +7

 

CFP is a free action, like EST or ECM that is based off of you TL action. To activate a CFP, you must take a TL - and therefore gain TL bonus, like it or not. However, if you do not like gaining the TL bonus, I question your sanity.

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D. EST has not effect on the target point roll, so just the Sultan's TC of 2, TL of +2 and FRS +3 = +7

 

CFP is a free action, like EST or ECM that is based off of you TL action. To activate a CFP, you must take a TL - and therefore gain TL bonus, like it or not. However, if you do not like gaining the TL bonus, I question your sanity.

 

Well crap, I hadn't even considered that. Hopefully we can get Mr. Chrome to chime in.

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When a section is preparing to use a CFP can the CFP initiator use another model's EST bonus for his TC or is this a violation of the 'No Stacking' rule?

The Target Point Roll for a Chain Lock Pod is not part of a Ranged Attack and can not use the bonus from EST Pods. In the CFP's case, the Target Point Roll is a part of the Target Lock Action.

 

It is not part of the attack action, but it calls for a Target Point Roll, which is defined under the AOE SA. Using that wording in the AOE SA, it is resolved just like an attack roll, IMO.

 

So, TC of the CFP model + EST Target Lock bonus from the EST model + FRS - Range Modifer = your Target Point Roll.

 

Mike

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