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When a section is preparing to use a CFP can the CFP initiator use another model's EST bonus for his TC or is this a violation of the 'No Stacking' rule?

The Target Point Roll for a Chain Lock Pod is not part of a Ranged Attack and can not use the bonus from EST Pods. In the CFP's case, the Target Point Roll is a part of the Target Lock Action.

 

TL and CFP are NOT the same non-repeatable action, a model can TL in its activation and another model in the section can activate its CFP in its activation.

CFP is not a Non-Repeatable Action, its a Free Action and the only way to activate it is to perform a Target Lock Action, which gives you access to the Chain Lock Pod SA's rules. For timing issues, Free Actions triggered by another Action are considered to happen at the same time as the triggering action. So the EST, ECM and Chain Fire Pod's events resolve at the same time as the Model's Target Lock or Jamming Action.

 

sethoman, see above, from earlier in this thread.

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When a section is preparing to use a CFP can the CFP initiator use another model's EST bonus for his TC or is this a violation of the 'No Stacking' rule?

The Target Point Roll for a Chain Lock Pod is not part of a Ranged Attack and can not use the bonus from EST Pods. In the CFP's case, the Target Point Roll is a part of the Target Lock Action.

 

TL and CFP are NOT the same non-repeatable action, a model can TL in its activation and another model in the section can activate its CFP in its activation.

CFP is not a Non-Repeatable Action, its a Free Action and the only way to activate it is to perform a Target Lock Action, which gives you access to the Chain Lock Pod SA's rules. For timing issues, Free Actions triggered by another Action are considered to happen at the same time as the triggering action. So the EST, ECM and Chain Fire Pod's events resolve at the same time as the Model's Target Lock or Jamming Action.

 

sethoman, see above, from earlier in this thread.

 

So the EST gives no benefit to IAs but the CFP essentially does two things for you:

 

1. It allows all the models in a given section to use the same target point and, if they so choose, to Salvo fire.

2. It gives a Target lock bonus on top of the normal TC add for the indirect attack.

 

Is the above all correct?

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Yes and no,

 

1. correct

 

2. The TL bonus is from the target lock action not the CFP, though as Chrome stated they take effect simultaneously.

 

Example: Fire Support Section Delta is composed of three Specters and an unmodified Kahn (which does not sport a CFP). The Kahn is within 3" of it's section mates and is undamaged. The Kahn Target Locks a soft transport thereby granting any ranged attacks the +3 TL bonus due to the Kahn's EST. The Specters now fire their IAs at the transport using 1d10+3 (Kahn's TL)+2 (Specter TC)+2 (FRS) for their target point roll.

 

I think the question is, using the same unit above, if one of the Specters decided to TL as well (TL is a non-repeatable action and all non-repeatable actions of the same type have to occur at the same time) in order to establish a target point (TP) does it get to use the Kahn's TC for the TL bonus or its own TC value when resolving the TP roll. The issue is one of timing, specifically when does the TL become effective and applied to nearby units when using EST.

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Yes and no,

 

1. correct

 

2. The TL bonus is from the target lock action not the CFP, though as Chrome stated they take effect simultaneously.

 

Example: Fire Support Section Delta is composed of three Specters and an unmodified Kahn (which does not sport a CFP). The Kahn is within 3" of it's section mates and is undamaged. The Kahn Target Locks a soft transport thereby granting any ranged attacks the +3 TL bonus due to the Kahn's EST. The Specters now fire their IAs at the transport using 1d10+3 (Kahn's TL)+2 (Specter TC)+2 (FRS) for their target point roll.

 

I think the question is, using the same unit above, if one of the Specters decided to TL as well (TL is a non-repeatable action and all non-repeatable actions of the same type have to occur at the same time) in order to establish a target point (TP) does it get to use the Kahn's TC for the TL bonus or its own TC value when resolving the TP roll. The issue is one of timing, specifically when does the TL become effective and applied to nearby units when using EST.

I got the exact opposite out of Chrome's answer. The TL must be performed by the CFP model with no aid from local ESTs. Therefore in your example the Specters could gain a +3 to hit if they DA fired at the transport, but could not benefit from EST at all for IA fire. Only the Target Point roll uses the TL stat and Chrome said:

The Target Point Roll for a Chain Lock Pod is not part of a Ranged Attack and can not use the bonus from EST Pods.
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OK after rereading the thread and consulting the rules i think the relationship is this. If using CFP no bonus from EST is allowed because the EST revision specifically says that Multiple TL bonuses do not stack and since your TLing to use CFP and it gives you a TL bonus then no EST is allowed because that would be stacking. However, If one was making an AOE attack without using CFP then the EST bonus would come into play per the EST rules revision in the errata that states that you may add the EST bonus to the target point roll of an AOE attack. Phew.

 

One thing I would point out that I think we were doing wrong in Dayton is that if a model was jamming we discounted the FRS for the Target Point Roll and the Drift Roll but it appears per the Jamming revision that it should only affect the drift roll.

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papabees, that sounds right to me. And you're right about the FRS too, it's only cancelled by ECM on the drift roll.

 

My bad there - went back and just re-read it, and found out I read it wrong the first 20 times.

 

I am still up in the air about the EST modifier. The only place a Target Point Roll is defined is in the AOE SA. And there, it makes no differentiation between CFP and Attack. In the EST, it claims the bonuses are added to the Target Point Roll (both main rules and Beta Errata) - seems to me, any time you make a Target Point Roll, you add EST.

 

However, I may be willing to concede the fact that the EST and CFP go off at the same time (both part of a Target Lock action) and may not stack due to that . But some clarity may be nice.

 

Mike

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papabees, that sounds right to me. And you're right about the FRS too, it's only cancelled by ECM on the drift roll.

 

My bad there - went back and just re-read it, and found out I read it wrong the first 20 times.

 

I am still up in the air about the EST modifier. The only place a Target Point Roll is defined is in the AOE SA. And there, it makes no differentiation between CFP and Attack. In the EST, it claims the bonuses are added to the Target Point Roll (both main rules and Beta Errata) - seems to me, any time you make a Target Point Roll, you add EST.

 

However, I may be willing to concede the fact that the EST and CFP go off at the same time (both part of a Target Lock action) and may not stack due to that . But some clarity may be nice.

 

Mike

 

Don't sweat it Mike, I mean we were all lobbing IA attacks so we all had the same advantage/disadvantage. I just wanted to make sure I had it straight in my head. Whether the CFP is or is not an attack roll is irrelevant in relation to the EST bonus. The reason you do not get the EST bonus is because TL bonuses cannot stack and using a CFP inherently gives a TL bonus. If you are not using CFP, then yes a model would get the EST bonus for the target point roll.

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From reading the, now, multi-page discussion my OP started I think it has become clear that EST/CFP need a point-by-point errata. Perhaps a doc/pdf that can be put at the head of a post basically as the EST FAQ.

 

1. EST on DA

2. EST on IA

3. EST on CFP

4. CFP on Defensive Fire

5. Other?

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CFP wouldn't even be an option on Defensive fire. Defensive fire is a snap shot back at the attacking model not a coordinated attack. EST works on all the other items you've listed as long as you or your team mate have manged to spend the action for a target lock.

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CFP wouldn't even be an option on Defensive fire. Defensive fire is a snap shot back at the attacking model not a coordinated attack. EST works on all the other items you've listed as long as you or your team mate have manged to spend the action for a target lock.

 

Woo-Hoo!

 

So, 2 Trebuchet w/ CFP + Talon combo:

 

Talon fires EST, Trebuchet fires CFP. Assuming first range band, the CFP is rolling at 3 EST + 2 TC + 3 FRS = +8 for the CFP to hit. Or does the EST override the TC of the Trebuchet, for a 3 EST + 3 FRS?

 

If you hose that, you calculate the CFP drift, and use that, or fire again without CFP.

 

Each Trebuchet gets 3 EST + 2 TC + 3 FRS to hit the target, while the Talon gets 3 EST + 3 TC.

 

That is how I read your response, and the summation of this thread. Is it correct?

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No, Pat is incorrect.

 

The Target Point Roll for a Chain Lock Pod is not part of a Ranged Attack and can not use the bonus from EST Pods.

 

I don't know how I can make it any clearer. The only bonus that a CFP's target point roll can use is the TC Value from the acting model's own Target Lock Action.

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CFP wouldn't even be an option on Defensive fire. Defensive fire is a snap shot back at the attacking model not a coordinated attack. EST works on all the other items you've listed as long as you or your team mate have manged to spend the action for a target lock.

 

Thank you. Answers have been given and then later post go right back to square one.

 

The only further clarification I would like to see, mostly just to see it in writing, is EST on an IA attack. It is possible for the Target Point to be a point in space, but only if the Target Point also happens to be a Model can the EST bonus be applied.

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