New Datacards

[Stubbdog]

wolflord,

 

look at the file that Gus included three posts up

[Melbourne Mew Mew]

Grammar nazi time.

 

Heroin is a narcotic. Heroine is a femal hero.

 

Pedant time.

 

First, you misspelled "female".

 

More importantly (well, to me)... in my mind a heroine is not the same thing as a female hero. A heroine is a damsel in distress who needs to be rescued by the (male) hero. A female hero is someone who gets to act heroically herself.

[GreyHorde]

Grammar nazi time.

 

Heroin is a narcotic. Heroine is a femal hero.

 

Pedant time.

 

First, you misspelled "female".

 

More importantly (well, to me)... in my mind a heroine is not the same thing as a female hero. A heroine is a damsel in distress who needs to be rescued by the (male) hero. A female hero is someone who gets to act heroically herself.

I beg to differ (politely, and with all due respect). If you're going to be admittedly pedantic, perhaps consistent usage and definition would be in order. Swapping roles between hero and victim hardly seems fitting. The only difference between hero and heroine is gender. A female hero is a heroine; it's just the female form of the word. From Wikipedia:

 

"A hero (from Greek ἥρως hērōs), in Greek mythology and folklore, was originally a demi-god, the offspring of a mortal and a deity,[1] their cult being one of the most distinctive features of ancient Greek religion.

 

Later, hero (male) and heroine (female) came to refer to characters that, in the face of danger and adversity or from a position of weakness, display courage and the will for self-sacrifice, that is, heroism, for some greater good, originally of martial courage or excellence but extended to more general moral excellence."

[Saint Vierzehn]

Bloodstone gnomes. There are so many problems with this list that I hardly know where to begin.

 

There is only one captain and only one sergeant, and both of them are unique. I assume that will be fixed when the army list comes out, making them non-unique.

 

Kurand the Ever Living, an 89 point warlord. For an 89 point warlord, I would expect someone pretty scrubby. This guy is both a mage and a cleric, with CP 8 in both. But wait, there's more! He's also got 4 attacks, and warmaster, and a DV that other 89-point spellcasters would envy. His MAV might look kinda low, but that's deceiving once you consider that it's easy to back him up with lots of numbers and reach. Orba Sinhan beware, for 89 points, this guy will kick your butt! Oh, and he's got toughness out the wazoo, and will most likely be backed up by 3 healers. Hmm... and we haven't even touched what the army SA will do for him.

 

Speaking of healer backup, Bloodstone Matrons are the new gold standard. Hospitalers wish they had it so good. Take a hospitaler, add tough/1 (!!!) and reach support (!!!!!). But wait, there's more! They're also clerics. And they have good MAV, too. After all, it wouldn't do to have your opponent knock your healers down in close combat and emerge unscathed. Add in the army SA, and these ol' biddies are healers that just won't die easily... and for 36 points, they're a bargain unlike anything else in the game.

 

Lesser Bloodstone Golem. Take a lupine rager, tweek its DV and MAV up, add fearsome, and reduce its cost. Let's not even consider the fact that the army SA can give them a free upgrade to something that 200+ point models would hesitate to engage.

 

Bloodstone Priest. A 35 point level 3 CP 7 wizard. Well, compared to all the other hero choices in the BSG list, he's pretty pathetic. But compared to stuff on all the other army lists, he's darned good.

 

Beetle Rider Lancers. Cavalry mobility and backstab. You're an idiot if you can't figure out what to do with that. Not good enough for you? Well, they threw in raider/2 also, so when you're about to take some hits you can disengage and go pull your little stunt on another part of the line. They also have DV comparable to most heavy cav, but at 46 points a pop, they're priced like light cav.

 

Bloodstone Guard. Good MAV, and they have reach support. At 32 points each, they're pretty comparable to most mid-range spearmen. Except for the fact that they're DV 14, of course.

 

Bloodstone Hoks. 4 attacks and warmaster for 36 points. There are 50-point models in the game that wish they had it so good.

 

Bloodstone Pinners. 24" crit shot, low point cost (of course) and toughness (of course). And typically with plenty of healer backup, given what the rest of the list looks like. A skilled player can use these to dictate where the battle will be fought. Not only can the BSG's whip anybody's butt in melee, they own ranged combat, too.

 

Pulgers. Another spearman option, just in case you think 30 points is too much to pay for reach support.

 

Tunnel knights. 3 attacks and warmaster for 34 points... just in case the Hoks weren't enough for you.

 

Bloodstone scraggers. Scrubs, right? Well, they are priced like scrubs. And have toughness, of course. Everything on this list has toughness. These guys are perfect for driving the army SA. Since they come in hordes, and will generally have reach support and healer backup, they'll probably do some decent damage before giving bonusses to the rest of your army after they die.

 

Charnel Grub. 6 (!!!!!!!) attacks, high MAV, and warmaster (of course). And good DV. And lots of toughness. AND POISON STRIKE? For 124 points, this thing can wipe out the front line of most armies, and then get back up and do it again.

 

Purple worm. Well, it looks pretty much like the 200+ point solos that you'll see on other lists. Which is to say, it's got special movement, high DV, lots of wound tracks, fearsome, high MAV, lots of attacks, and warmaster. But quite frankly, given the bargains and synergies that you can get elsewhere on the list, it's silly to take him. Grab 10 scraggers instead, and use them to fuel the charnel grub after they've done their duty as soldiers. Hello 6 MAV 17 attacks with poison!

 

Greater Bloodstone Golem. Don't pay points for him. Get him as a free upgrade of the lesser golem.

 

I hear the counter-argument already. "But StV, these guys all have low damage tracks!" So? The army SA actually rewards you for getting your own guys killed, and for the roles that the various models are best suited to fill, they're hyper-efficient. 2 damage tracks isn't a disadvantage for a model standing behind the front line. 2 damage tracks isn't a disadvantage for a 22 point model with toughness. 2 damage tracks isn't a disadvantage for a 30-point model with DV 13+ and good melee and warmaster. 2 damage tracks isn't a disadvantage for a list OF LOW POINT COST MODELS, ALL OF WHICH HAVE TOUGHNESS, AND IN WHICH HEALING ABOUNDS.

 

Sincerely,

 

StV.

Edited March 13, 2008 by Qwyksilver
Removed content attacking developers et al

[Arbiter10]

Well, before the flaming starts and this thread subsequently gets locked , I would like to know if only the new data cards are available, or if the actual RC '08 document is available (with details on sublists and faction SAs). I believe Wolflord was asking for the same thing. Stubbdog, you pointed back to Gus' post, but all I find there is the data cards. So, is RC '08 available yet, or just the data cards for now?

 

Btw, thanks, Gus, and everyone else, for all the work that went into creating the new content.

[Brushmaster]

OK guys and gals , before you get on your soapboxes and get irate about all the changes and proposed new cards , have a seriuos look at things . Nothing is set in stone that is why this is a Beta . Playtest the cards , give us feedback . Just don't simply look at something and say its b0rken !

Give us examples and lots , then things can be fixed before the final layout .

Oh and St.V , you have some valid points there , I for one didn't look at then as they did not interest me and had other things to do .

[Evilbob]

I still think the Bathalian should be an Overlord...

[spiritual_exorcist]

Saint Vierzehn: If you are convinced these guys are ultra-powerful then playtest them. I'm not so convinced, i'm not sold on the faction ability I admit (and I have expressed serious concern about it + alot of Scraggers, but I don't think the models themselves are out of line in most cases. The list needs playtesting, that is what the beta is about.

 

2 wounds is a serious equalizer when it comes to their points cost, not a disadvantage considering their points cost, but certainly they will die in droves if you play a well rounded army. Not to say they won't be a serious list, but I think they are far from unbeatable FA aside. I think you dismiss it too quickly.

 

As for Kurand, his casting abilites aren't all that nasty given his limited spell capacity, and the fact that he can either be a mage or a cleric, not both at once. He doesn't carry Healer like most clerics, or Innate(Bolt) like most Mages. He does have access to some hefty spells, but only in very limited numbers, especially if he intends to take a Counterspell to protect himself as I would generally do with most of my high level casters. His Large size base will be a huge hindrance in my opinion.

 

My Bloodstone Gnomes FA would be as follows (with possibly a lot of tweaking after playtesting):

 

1) Spend two blood points to give a model Frenzy until the end of the activation.

 

2) Spend two blood points to heal a Leader model a single damage track as a free action during its activation, a model healing itself in this manner may not be stunned, and may do so only once during any activation.

 

3) Spend Blood Points to Heal a Golem as a free action during its activation as follows:

1=1 track

3=2 tracks

6=3 tracks

10=4 tracks

15=5 tracks

21=6 tracks

 

Anyway, I din't hear anyone complaining about the Pinners, Pulgers and Tunnels Knights previously, why now?

 

What these guys suffer from is a real lack of weakness that can easily be exploited without planning to fight them. High MD, High DV, Tough/2+ on every model, and alot of quality offensive abilities. They'll be tough to fight against, but I still have my doubts about them being unbeatable. No doubt this faction, and its FA were brought to you by the same people who brought you the Reptus last year, meaning they have the best of nearly all worlds It is almost as if seeing as they have only 2 wounds they've been given the best of everything else. I wish my Goblins and Lesser Orcs could say the same. Time will tell, if dozens of reports come back to Gus with well documented playtest about the Gnomes running rampant I can almost assure you we'll see a change.

 

Truthfully I like the Gnomes more than I like the Lupines (uninspired) or the totally unneeded Dwarf Girl faction (lame lame lame, it doesn't fit the factions character in any way, take your midget fantasy women fetishes out of my game please, as if the tarted up Nuns weren't bad enough, I want to see a plausible backstory ans justification for this sub-faction, maybe a Man drought?). The Gnomes might need a little work in terms of game play, but they are interesting and unique. I'm more excied about the all around changes made to many faction models in terms of points cost, and a number of the new models hitting the deck for existing factions.

[spiritual_exorcist]

Can't seem to find the Equipment + Spells + FA stuff in the download, where should I be looking?

[Fruggs]

There is only one captain and only one sergeant, and both of them are unique. I assume that will be fixed when the army list comes out, making them non-unique.

Kurand the Ever Living, an 89 point warlord. For an 89 point warlord, I would expect someone pretty scrubby. This guy is both a mage and a cleric, with CP 8 in both. But wait, there's more! He's also got 4 attacks, and warmaster, and a DV that other 89-point spellcasters would envy. His MAV might look kinda low, but that's deceiving once you consider that it's easy to back him up with lots of numbers and reach. Orba Sinhan beware, for 89 points, this guy will kick your butt! Oh, and he's got toughness out the wazoo, and will most likely be backed up by 3 healers. Hmm... and we haven't even touched what the army SA will do for him.

If they stay unique it means the force you field has a very limited number of troops possible, How is this a bad thing? You have a troop with the warlord, with the sergeant and one captain, and then if the game is big enough you can get some solo models.

Where did you find any faction special ability? can you point a link out. He looks like he is a bit underpriced but not by much, surround him with crimson knights and he'd be dead pretty fast. He might take out one knight with his warmaster, but then he is dead and his whole troop is now shaken, which makes them easier to hit, and with only two other leader models, it decreases the ability of the other leaders to regroup the troop. as per the low point cost and damage tracks you will need to field the pack of em to do real damage to anything that has more than one MA.

 

Speaking of healer backup, Bloodstone Matrons are the new gold standard. Hospitalers wish they had it so good. Take a hospitaler, add tough/1 (!!!) and reach support (!!!!!). But wait, there's more! They're also clerics. And they have good MAV, too. After all, it wouldn't do to have your opponent knock your healers down in close combat and emerge unscathed. Add in the army SA, and these ol' biddies are healers that just won't die easily... and for 36 points, they're a bargain unlike anything else in the game.

Lesser Bloodstone Golem. Take a lupine rager, tweek its DV and MAV up, add fearsome, and reduce its cost. Let's not even consider the fact that the army SA can give them a free upgrade to something that 200+ point models would hesitate to engage.

 

These are fair priced, Halbarad is more similar but he has more damage tracks, and with tough one the chances to revive are tiny. Not to mention as it seems this faction is about swarms of models the reality of stacking tons of cleric spells is slim as a lot of points will already be spent on the warlords spells.

 

I think the golem is fair, he is a hero, but a beast so he can't get special armor or weapon upgrades available to Finari, who has the same deflect and toughness, and warmaster as well and only one less MAV but that is reflected in her 10 point less cost but has fearless instead or fearsome and trencher instead of reach. And who also can be fielded more than once.

 

Bloodstone Priest. A 35 point level 3 CP 7 wizard. Well, compared to all the other hero choices in the BSG list, he's pretty pathetic. But compared to stuff on all the other army lists, he's darned good.

 

He is unique, so you can only field one whereas Ian which is similar is point cost is non unique and has another damage track and innate spell, so you don't have to burn points on defensive magic spells

 

Beetle Rider Lancers. Cavalry mobility and backstab. You're an idiot if you can't figure out what to do with that. Not good enough for you? Well, they threw in raider/2 also, so when you're about to take some hits you can disengage and go pull your little stunt on another part of the line. They also have DV comparable to most heavy cav, but at 46 points a pop, they're priced like light cav.

They only move 8 not 12, Also they are on a large base which means more enemies can surround them. Ivy crown light lancers have raider 2 also, and deathriders from necropolis have noncorporeal and similar stats to the bloodstone cav

 

Bloodstone Guard. Good MAV, and they have reach support. At 32 points each, they're pretty comparable to most mid-range spearmen. Except for the fact that they're DV 14, of course.

Bloodstone Hoks. 4 attacks and warmaster for 36 points. There are 50-point models in the game that wish they had it so good.

The Guard are comparable to Ironspines and they do not have first strike, and only one damage track. and they are adepts you can only have one troop with them in it.

 

again the hok are adepts and you have one damage track, take two models and score a hit with one coup de gras with the other and dont worry bout tough

 

Bloodstone Pinners. 24" crit shot, low point cost (of course) and toughness (of course). And typically with plenty of healer backup, given what the rest of the list looks like. A skilled player can use these to dictate where the battle will be fought. Not only can the BSG's whip anybody's butt in melee, they own ranged combat, too.

Pulgers. Another spearman option, just in case you think 30 points is too much to pay for reach support.

The pinners are comparable to Ivy Crown Archers who have marksman and another damage track, the same range and ranger.

Pulgers also an adept , so you can only field one troop with these, and have one track, get the Army of justice sublist on em and your ironspines are smiting evil/1 gain deflect/1 just like the gnomes and have trencher and are fearless

 

Tunnel knights. 3 attacks and warmaster for 34 points... just in case the Hoks weren't enough for you.

Bloodstone scraggers. Scrubs, right? Well, they are priced like scrubs. And have toughness, of course. Everything on this list has toughness. These guys are perfect for driving the army SA. Since they come in hordes, and will generally have reach support and healer backup, they'll probably do some decent damage before giving bonusses to the rest of your army after they die.

 

The knights also are adepts, and have one track and have less MAV than justicars who are similar.

Thi scragger is the only model you can have more than one troop of. They are similar in stats to templar knights who gain smite evil under the sublist and who have trencher and deflect, also the gnomes have less DV Pick em off with archers from far off.

 

Charnel Grub. 6 (!!!!!!!) attacks, high MAV, and warmaster (of course). And good DV. And lots of toughness. AND POISON STRIKE? For 124 points, this thing can wipe out the front line of most armies, and then get back up and do it again.

Purple worm. Well, it looks pretty much like the 200+ point solos that you'll see on other lists. Which is to say, it's got special movement, high DV, lots of wound tracks, fearsome, high MAV, lots of attacks, and warmaster. But quite frankly, given the bargains and synergies that you can get elsewhere on the list, it's silly to take him. Grab 10 scraggers instead, and use them to fuel the charnel grub after they've done their duty as soldiers. Hello 6 MAV 17 attacks with poison!

"Hello 6 MAV 17 attacks with poison!" How do you get this #? Look at the treeman stats he is 100 points less and has many of the same SA's.

 

Greater Bloodstone Golem. Don't pay points for him. Get him as a free upgrade of the lesser golem.

Where is this stated?

 

 

in response to the low damage track statement, all of the models of which but a few are adepts and can only be fielded once and have a limited # of troop possibilities. Not to mention again that once the leaders are killed with only two damage tracks and only three command choices the army has lower DIS than they already do which is lower than other things with comparable prices.

Give it a chance before you go hollering and insulting people.

[spiritual_exorcist]

Charnel Grub. 6 (!!!!!!!) attacks, high MAV, and warmaster (of course). And good DV. And lots of toughness. AND POISON STRIKE? For 124 points, this thing can wipe out the front line of most armies, and then get back up and do it again.

Purple worm. Well, it looks pretty much like the 200+ point solos that you'll see on other lists. Which is to say, it's got special movement, high DV, lots of wound tracks, fearsome, high MAV, lots of attacks, and warmaster. But quite frankly, given the bargains and synergies that you can get elsewhere on the list, it's silly to take him. Grab 10 scraggers instead, and use them to fuel the charnel grub after they've done their duty as soldiers. Hello 6 MAV 17 attacks with poison!

 

At best the Grub could gain +1 MAV or +1 DV or +1#MA, through sacrifice of the Scraggers, not +10 MAV. You can only gain one upgrade per model during each of its activations or Heal one point of damage.

 

So the Grub could be #MAV8 + #MA 6 or #MAV 7 + #MA 7 if you used a blood point. He is a nasty piece of kit, but 4 wounds is nothing and DV 13 isn't anything special. He'll be hard pressed to take his points worth of models in many situations. I'll admit I'd probably rather see him with 4 Attacks, MAV 7 and frenzy though. The big kicker on this model is disable, that will make it tough, but it needs to initiate an attack to use it, so the key would be to attack it first, and hopefully knock it down a track or two with a spell or ranged attack. If you ignore it it will hurt you, deal with it before it gets into B2B. It is a solo, making it exceptionally hard to co-ordinate with soldier models.

 

Similarly pointed models: Griffon, Mossbeard, Onyx Golem, Dragon Turtle. At that sort of points range similar models have fewer offensive abilities but alot more damage tracks. Funnily the Grub follows the pattern of all BSG models and have low wounds but high offensive and defensive abilities, go figure. Like all the other models whether or not this outweighs the low damage tracks can't be determined unless you play a game with them.

 

Greater Bloodstone Golem. Don't pay points for him. Get him as a free upgrade of the lesser golem.

Where is this stated?

 

 

 

Faction ability, and probably the thing about the faction I like least. Essentially you can upgrade a lesser golem to a Greater one every 5 models you lose. Rewards playing pretty offensively and without a whole lot of caution. Also rewards builds made around scragger models as they are the most value for points when it comes to this FA. A 70 point upgrade to your model, and free healing is a pretty hefty reward for playing in a manner that loses you models.

[WolfLord]

Where is this list of new spell and magic item costs and Faction Ablilities? The only thing in the download was Datacards.

[Brushmaster]

Can't seem to find the Equipment + Spells + FA stuff in the download, where should I be looking?

Not available yet , Gus is working on it .

[Saint Vierzehn]

Saint Vierzehn: If you are convinced these guys are ultra-powerful then playtest them.

 

 

I'll let you know if I feel like it. That's a really crappy attitude for a game company to take towards its patrons... "Don't like it? Spend your time playtesting it for us." Last time Reaper pulled that one on me I walked away for several months. There's a fine line between soliciting input and demanding free game development. My employer gives me a paycheck for my analytical abilities. I don't expect a paycheck from my hobbies, but I do expect them to be recreational, not work.

 

I've been playing a Merc list loaded with 2-damage track models with similar point costs. My merc list has a handful of elite troops and many scrubs. I'm pretty sure the BSG list I would build would look a lot like it, only dialed up an order of magintude on the power scale because EVERYTHING would now have toughness and healing.

 

I'm half tempted to build a BSG army using my Merc models as proxies, and then play it without the BSG army SA's just to make a point. I'm pretty sure I would clean up with it, big time. On the other hand, I'm half tempted to refuse to get near the list (either as a player or an opponent) because I consider it unsporting. I don't think there would be any glory in winning with it.

 

Speaking of employers and paychecks, I've spent too much time already this morning. Gotta go.

 

-StV.

[Qwyksilver]

[MOD]

Keep it civil. I have no problems locking this thread or removing posts if you cannot have a civil discussion about the new Data Cards.

 

If you disagree, fine. State your disagreement, give your reasons, and leave it at that.

 

Comments about developers and testers are uncalled for and unneccessary to the discussion.

 

Consider yourselves warned.

[/MOD]