New Datacards

[GreyHorde]

Back on topic, I've only looked directly at Dwarves to see what changed, and the troop values seem to be the biggest movers. Most look like improvements, but playtesting is not so easy for me these days. For SA changes, the one I am most curious about is Herryk losing Defensive Magic.

 

I may be able to speak intelligently about this one. If I remember correctly, ALL clerics lost Defensive Magic. (Of course, as soon as I open mouth, I'll be inserting a foot with a big ol' stinky sock on it!! ) I think the reasoning was something like "What spells can a cleric cast defensively?" I am pretty sure that answer is "None."

 

Wild Bill

WB, you're probably dead on, there. Shows how often I actually get to play, doesn't it? Thanks for clarifying it for me.

[shakhak]

I was looking through the Darkspawn, and I noticed a big solo changed.

 

1) It was initially called Maladom, Fire Demon. Now it is Maladorn, Fire Demon. Is that correct?

 

2) Originally it had Flyer. That is now gone. Is that correct?

 

a) If Flyer is removed, why was it removed?

 

Wild Bill

 

http://www.reapermini.com/Miniatures/previ...est/14461_w_1_1

 

Check out the miniature and you'll see why flyer was removed.

 

*Hint: The sculpt doesn't have wings*

[wildbill]

I was looking through the Darkspawn, and I noticed a big solo changed.

 

1) It was initially called Maladom, Fire Demon. Now it is Maladorn, Fire Demon. Is that correct?

 

2) Originally it had Flyer. That is now gone. Is that correct?

 

a) If Flyer is removed, why was it removed?

 

Wild Bill

 

http://www.reapermini.com/Miniatures/previ...est/14461_w_1_1

 

Check out the miniature and you'll see why flyer was removed.

 

*Hint: The sculpt doesn't have wings*

 

Yeah yeah yeah. There you go getting all logic-y on me! I see how it is...

 

 

Wild Bill

[Gaming Glen]

[Vil-hatarn]

They also reduced Rauthoros's spell cap--it's for the same reason there are no flyers with ranged attacks. Flyers with magic are approaching brokenness, so they limited it with the low spell cap.

[Warwick]

You know, I was talking with Rauthoros yesterday and he said his spell cap was lower because he really hates to study, never was good in school, and can't read for long before getting a headache and devouring an unwilling victim. It was a warm moment, he really opened up. Then he flew off to slaughter some innocent farmers. Touching.

[Melbourne Mew Mew]

I beg to differ (politely, and with all due respect). If you're going to be admittedly pedantic, perhaps consistent usage and definition would be in order. Swapping roles between hero and victim hardly seems fitting. The only difference between hero and heroine is gender. A female hero is a heroine; it's just the female form of the word. From Wikipedia:

 

"A hero (from Greek ἥρως hērōs), in Greek mythology and folklore, was originally a demi-god, the offspring of a mortal and a deity,[1] their cult being one of the most distinctive features of ancient Greek religion.

 

Later, hero (male) and heroine (female) came to refer to characters that, in the face of danger and adversity or from a position of weakness, display courage and the will for self-sacrifice, that is, heroism, for some greater good, originally of martial courage or excellence but extended to more general moral excellence."

 

 

Sure, that's the technical definition... it's just that "heroine" tends to be used to mean the "damsel in distress" stereotype. So I personally prefer to use "hero" for female characters as well as male ones.

[joshuaslater]

Nice to see Reaper finally taking advantage of their massive catalog and including DHL into Warlord. I suggested it ages ago, as it gives the players more options and lets Reaper sell more pewter.

[dewen]

[MOD]

Keep it civil. I have no problems locking this thread or removing posts if you cannot have a civil discussion about the new Data Cards.

 

If you disagree, fine. State your disagreement, give your reasons, and leave it at that.

 

Comments about developers and testers are uncalled for and unneccessary to the discussion.

 

Consider yourselves warned.

[/MOD]

I've read enough.

[spiritual_exorcist]

I'll let you know if I feel like it. That's a really crappy attitude for a game company to take towards its patrons... "Don't like it? Spend your time playtesting it for us." Last time Reaper pulled that one on me I walked away for several months. There's a fine line between soliciting input and demanding free game development. My employer gives me a paycheck for my analytical abilities. I don't expect a paycheck from my hobbies, but I do expect them to be recreational, not work.

 

This is a beta list of datacrds, you are more than welcome not to look at them and wait for the final revision. I look it as opportunity to make a case for things that I might find unbalancing in a game I really like to play. Not as work, if it is work to you, just sit tight and wait.

 

I've been playing a Merc list loaded with 2-damage track models with similar point costs. My merc list has a handful of elite troops and many scrubs. I'm pretty sure the BSG list I would build would look a lot like it, only dialed up an order of magintude on the power scale because EVERYTHING would now have toughness and healing.

 

I'm half tempted to build a BSG army using my Merc models as proxies, and then play it without the BSG army SA's just to make a point. I'm pretty sure I would clean up with it, big time. On the other hand, I'm half tempted to refuse to get near the list (either as a player or an opponent) because I consider it unsporting. I don't think there would be any glory in winning with it.

 

Ah, but that would be work I'd be more than happy to play several list against and with the BSG to see how they play.

 

The BSG item I probably have issue most with is the Hok, who becomes a Grunt in the pure faction list. Not because of his #MA, but because of his SMite(good)/2 which pushes him up to MAV 6, #MAV 4 against good army lists. This ability was not there in initial playtesting, I really dislike its appearance. I mean that is Warlord like attack abilities on a pretty low point model (King Thorgram wants his Axe back). It is excessive, these little buggers need nothing more than Warmaster in their melee SA column.

 

The Grub doesn't bother me too much, I might need to allocate more than its points cost to defeat it, but I certainly wouldn't lose as many points as it costs in doing so. Many models in the game are there to distract the opponent, and indeed can hurt you hard if you are unprepared, but the Grub is hardly the only one in the game. My main issue was with its ability to be summoned, but I see summoning is changing slightly and no longer allows the summoned model to act immediatly so that isn't an issue anymore. You can try to support it with Scraggers, but as a solo it is a bit more difficult than any other model type. Playing against it the first time I'd likely try a combination of Ranged attacks + Spells + First strikers. I mean MD 14 is steep (not sure why a Carrion Crawler is so Magic resistant) but CP 9-10 spells aren't that uncommon, and an Ice Shard is pretty cheap, dropping the Grub down to DV 11 and making it easy pickings. And Yes, I would charge the Grub with 3-4 grunts (First strikers I would prefer) but if I was smart I would only attack with 2-3 leaving the last one free to CdG.

[spiritual_exorcist]

But, Argyrian (Silver Dragon) STILL does not have a breath attack?

 

Unfortunately this is unlikely to ever happen, Flyers + Ranged attacks can be highly abused in this game, so in the case of a dragon it was choose one or the other, and I can't see a non-flying Silver dragon. One of the reasons the dragon was given Mage 3 was to help it simulate breath attacks (Fireballs, Firestorms, lightning bolts etc) without making it unbalancing.

[WolfLord]

I was looking over the lupines and I noticed that Istvan, Rager Captain was reduced from a Unique Captain to a lowly Sergeant. Poor guy, he's been demoted and doesn't even know it.

 

Seriously, though, is that correct? He's now a non-unique sergeant.

[spiritual_exorcist]

It is correct with the introduction of several new Captains models he was demoted indeed. He is otherwise the same model as far as his datacard goes, so you lose out on his ability to take Elites, and that is it (he even gets the ability to lead more troops). If you want Elites and Captains you have the Slayer and the Veteran now.

[Saint Vierzehn]

The Grub doesn't bother me too much, I might need to allocate more than its points cost to defeat it, but I certainly wouldn't lose as many points as it costs in doing so.

 

 

When you say that, what you're failing to consider is that you've now freed up an equivalent number of points of anything I choose on my list to support it.

 

 

Many models in the game are there to distract the opponent, and indeed can hurt you hard if you are unprepared, but the Grub is hardly the only one in the game.

 

 

I take nothing to act merely as a distraction. Oh, it's a bonus if it does. But if I drop it on the table, it's there to win the game.

 

 

Playing against it the first time I'd likely try a combination of Ranged attacks + Spells + First strikers.

 

 

So, how many points are you dedicating to this effort? It's starting to sound like quite a bit more than 124.

 

 

I mean MD 14 is steep (not sure why a Carrion Crawler is so Magic resistant) but CP 9-10 spells aren't that uncommon, and an Ice Shard is pretty cheap,

 

 

I think the cheapest CP 9 wizard you'll get is a Bloodstone Priest with a greater familiar. That plus an ice shard spell will run you 80 points. And you're going to have to dedicate a whole lot more than that to put the grub down.

 

 

And Yes, I would charge the Grub with 3-4 grunts (First strikers I would prefer) but if I was smart I would only attack with 2-3 leaving the last one free to CdG.

 

4 grunts is the best choice, since attacking with only two grunts (even after the ice shard) leaves a reasonable chance that you'll do insufficient damage to put it down tough. At ~30 points each, plus the wizard described above, you've now dedicated ~200 points to killing my 124 point model. That isn't a winning solution, and we haven't even begun to discuss the fact that I can drop 6 MAV 6 attacks to kill the one guy you've held back to coup, or the fact that I'll probably be keeping my high-mobility grub BEHIND MY FRONT LINE, ACTING AS A MOBILE ASSAULT RESERVE rather than hanging him out all by his lonesome for you to pick off with the models of your choosing.

 

-StV.

[spiritual_exorcist]

RE:Grub

 

But you assume those 200 points are only going to be used throughout the game to deal with the Grub, which I doubt will be the case. The base cost of a Mage is quite expensive, but spells are cheap, once I have the caster he'll be tossing spells every turn, not just at the grub.

 

You can't say the model isn't balanced simply by saying that I should require exactly 124 points to take it on. I just don't agree with that.

 

Lets say I go with Lord Tharian as my Mage + greater familiar, 3 Crimson Knights, Elsabeth, 3 Wraiths, 2 Skelly archers. This is a bloody expensive troop, but it won't just be dealing with the Grub, it should be laying the boots to a huge number of your Scraggers, and given the high model count you plan to field, there should be a lot of casualty tokens on the field to help the Vampires out. It is a well rounded Adept focused troop, and any number of them in the game would be capable of laying the boots to the BSGs. THe Grub wouldn't take more than a turn to kill once engaged, and wouldn't take more than 1-2 models with it. Especially given Undead are immune to Poison.

 

Oh, also I correct my previous statement that Summoning has changed, it hasn't, now I take exception to the Grub. It can now be summoned directly into BtB under the perfect circumstances, well supported. Pretty tough to see that as a good option.