Saint Vierzehn Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 RE:Grub But you assume those 200 points are only going to be used throughout the game to deal with the Grub, which I doubt will be the case. No, I don't. What I assume is that when you commit more points than I have, that I'll be able to either match up to your level with any resources on my army list that best suits the threat (and, as you've previously pointed out, the BSG's have options for everything), or commit that many more points of resource elsewhere to take best advantage that I can, whichever I prefer. Committing 200 points of resource to kill a 124 point model is a losing proposition. If I choose to allow you to pull it off (and whether you actually can is very debatable), it's only because I've chosen to take that much more out of your hide somewhere else. You're obviously not being objective. I don't intend to carry this conversation with you any further. -StV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Vierzehn Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 I've seen at least a couple proposals for the BSG FA. I think it is a bad idea to reward a player when an opponent kills one of your models. I think it would be a better idea to allow BSG's to sacrifice their own troops for the benefits. -StV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warwick Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 Let's not get too wrapped up in point costs. In my last game I had a single Crimson Knight stand against the Boar Rider and kill it. On the other flank poor Lord Vandrian was a complete waste of a good Vampire model. This happens time after time. Saying a model should be able to do X because it costs Y is not taking the dice into consideration. Playtest the model and see that it can really handle. Lord Vandrian never - not once - has earned his points. The Grave Horror always does. Gargoyles work great for me, but not as a unit by themselves. None of this has anything to do with points, I guess, but I have the look at the BSG and say "that's some serious power". I for one can't wait to field a Purple Worm. If only Freelance was allowed at ReaperCon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evilbob Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 I agree with Warwick here. I have seen the dice throw some pretty 'balanced' games into slaughter-thons, and also some match-ups that were seriously one sided (but i took the chance just because we were playing to last man standing, and I knew I was going to loose so why not) come out the opposite way the 'points' said it should. {full health Lupine Warlord with GMA/GMW vs. 1 IC skirmisher and a damaged Sgt. with no magic}. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulmage Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 Looking at the BSG. . . I'm not seeing anything that really makes me worry about them being two powerful. Sure, a lot of them have a lot of SAs. . . but those SAs won't help them much when the model is dead (except tough! LOL!! But once you know how to loot effectively, that is seldom a problem.) I kinda see the army folding pretty easily actually. I must say though, the purple worm rocks! I wish I could take one in my dwarf army!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaming Glen Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vil-hatarn Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 Consider Larnach's ranged attack as a sort of magic missile, not a bow. It's much more powerful than Bolt (range, marksman), so he kept it instead of getting the innate (bolt) like standard mages did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdripley Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 If the Bloodstone Gnomes are broken, then so are the Dwarves. I like the Sekhmet models for Nefsokar. They seem to form a nice bridge between the "holy cow" models such as Tomb Guards and Devourers and the models like the Khamsin and Awakened. I like that because whenever I went to build a Nefsokar army it would always end up being a Tomb Guard list because, as I play Dwarves for my primary faction, the Khamsin-ness of the Khamsins scare me, so I'd want more backbone in the list. The obvious choice was Tomb Guards and Devourers. Now there's another choice! It would appear as though Warlords all get 3/12/X for their troop size, Captains get up to 11, and sgts get up to 9. I liked the drastic change in troop size from Warlord to lesser leader, myself. I'm not too broken up about the change, since I can still field small troops if I want. I guess this goes under the "cool new options" column as well. I'm a fan of having Innate spells back! Anything that gives the mages a special place is good if you ask me. I've used clerics nearly exclusively since RC07. I never really thought of it as a relative power issue, and it sure has plenty to do with my playstyle (get rock solid models, and make sure you can heal them when they eventually do take damage). But "back in the day" I used to have all sorts of fun playing Margara Firetongue, and I admit I miss the little girl. I'll have to make some more lists featuring her! ***Edit*** Snorri got Champion!! Hah! Happy dance! (and that's saying something, to get me to do the happy dance!) Now Snorri and Kara can run together in the same troop! Annasha Tomebreaker also got Champion. I think that's a good boost for her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiritual_exorcist Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 @StVCommitting 200 points of resource to kill a 124 point model is a losing proposition. If I choose to allow you to pull it off (and whether you actually can is very debatable), it's only because I've chosen to take that much more out of your hide somewhere else. You're obviously not being objective. I don't intend to carry this conversation with you any further. I'd say your argument is illogical given that after I commit 200 points to killing a 124 point model, the remaining models will be free to deal with whatever else I see as a threat. Your argument suggests that if I have a Justicar (for example), and use it to kill 2 Goblins on turn two of a game, using the Justicar against those goblins was a poor tactical decision even if that Justicar remains unharmed and goes on to kills its cost worth of enemy models, simply based on the fact that a Justicar is worth more than two goblins. So we all should be playing Noghra armies comprised only of Goblin Warriors so that we don't ever attack anything more expensive than the models we are using. Feel free not to carry on the conversation, it doesn't bother me in the least. Hmmm. Larnach, Grey Elf Arch Mage, kept his bow (he still has a RAV value and ranged SAs), even though the miniature does not have one. Being an "Arch Mage" would seem to indicate that he is a pure spell caster and he drops the ranged attacks and gets the Innate Spell (Bolt) SA just like Lysette did. Probably a case of only being able to justify one or the other, not both, in order to keep his points cost in line. I think the higher range + Marksman/1 + Sure Shot will make up for the lower attack value. Still you have a point, he is one of the heftiest Mages in the game, and one of only a few not to have an Innate Spell. I would probably be more keen on his ranged attack if he was actually carrying a bow in the sculpt, but from the shots I've seen he isn't. Snorri got Champion!! Hah! Happy dance! (and that's saying something, to get me to do the happy dance!) Now Snorri and Kara can run together in the same troop! Annasha Tomebreaker also got Champion. I think that's a good boost for her . I think Xailor and Garr are the only two models I would have liked to have seen get this ability but didn't, oh well, I'm pretty pumped about Greka getting it (not to mention her getting her Mage SA back). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubbdog Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 SV, The main thing that has kept me from really joining this conversation so far has been the one statement you made early on where you basically insulted myself and Gus (talking about us having our heads buried somewhere) and I admit I took offense to that and it has been hard to read the rest of your comments in an unbiased, unaffected point of view. Which I guess serves me right as I basically did the same thing a year ago related to some early version changes of RC2007. As the main person who worked on the BSG, and as someone who knows you personally and sees you up at the Asylum on a regular basis, I can tell you that I do respect your opinion. And will take more time looking at what we have created here so far. But, I can also tell you that has not been unbalanced at all so far in playtesting. Sure, it has dominated a game or two, and it has been wiped out in a game or two. So, far it has not proven to be any more potent than your 1000 point crusader force with 13 healers and a handful of heavy cavalry in it. Quite the opposite really, the crusaders mercy has gotten the better of the gnomes almost every playtest against the tin cans. But, again, this post is to let you know that we are going back and trying to look at them from a fresh eyes approach and will see how we what we can come up with. Not guaranteeing any changes at all. But am guaranteeing that we are taking your opinion seriously and going to rethink everything about the BSGs and how they should be on the field... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiritual_exorcist Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 I appreciate the BSG concerns being looked at. As I said I really like these guys, I could see myself playing them based upon their models, but there are a few things I look at that would make me feel a little too dirty about using them. Not too concerned about most things, as I would expect them to die in droves, just really worried about armies geared to take the very highest advantage of the FA would excel unfairly (Scraggers + casters + lesser golems). The FA itself almost penalizes the BSG opponents for being quality players by giving the Gnomes an advantage every time you do well and kill a model, that is a FA that isn't fun to play against, it is demoralizing. I recal the early 90's in my Warhammer 40K day having certain armies I dreaded and hated to play against because the game wasn't fun, I don't want the BSG to have that sort of feeling. The FA being re-worked from concept up would best impress me. I think a couple of good BL brainstorm sessions could come up with a great alternative more than likely. Quick Thoughts: Cavern Combatants: Small size and training in fighting in close quarters gives the entire army the Ranked SA Furious Demise: All BSG models gain Frenzy when on their last damage track. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hok losing Trencher and gaining Smite(Good) strikes me as over the top (I reckon it needs neither), and I'm not sure this model needs to become a grunt. Grub having Summoned worries me very much, I can see these guys being very good character/monster killers when summoned on the an activation with well placed Soldier models supporting and granting Reach. I'm not sure I understand the need for both the Pulger and the Guard, and truthfully I dislike the Guards card and I can't fathom why it would have Berserker + DV 14, a combination unheard of, if you want a Fearless DV 14 model fine, but Berserker SA models are all low DV, I dislike this pattern being broken. I find the DV 14 excessive, but truth be told I'd likely take the Pulger every time because of its First Strike and cheaper cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellsgate Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 From what I've seen, the BSG's list looks fine. Only one extra wound on all grunts/adepts bar one, and an average DV of 11 would to me balance out there offencive capabilities dramaticly. And as i'm bord and the 124pt grub seems to be under great dispute here's how I see it vs. the common reptus: 3x skullbreakers (141pt): 9 mav 9 attacks, vs. DV 13. avg=6.3 hits vs. 4.2. Reptus win, with only 1 lost 3x Longstrikers (144pt): 3 mav 8 1st strikes, vs. DV 13. avg=1.8 hits .......................................6 mav 8 attacks, vs. DV 12. avg=4.2 hits vs. 4.2. Reptus win, with only 1 lost 4x clutchlings (120pt): 4 mav 8 1st strikes, vs. DV 13. avg=2.4 hits ....................................4 mav 8 attacks, vs. DV 11. avg=3.2 hits vs. 5.4. Reptus win, with only 2 lost Sure you'll have support, but that's what the rest of my troops there to deal with. And as any one of these three are likely to show up in near every game against reptus I'll near garanty that you'll be needing that tough/5 to stand any chance of living till the second round of combat. and it you're not gonna take them on, great, that's 124pt you've left to do nothing as it's a melee troop. Hopefully i'll be having an actual game against the list this sunday, but till then I've done similar calculations for some of the army (yes i was very board), and from what I can tell without a good fraction ability they's be to soft to pose a large threat. StV, the maths says it's not overpowered, the play testers say it's not, without actualy playesting it yourself to prove both wrong (few people will argue with that) then all you've done since is repeat your first post. I'll hold my judgement on the changes to mages/archers, and the new reptus models till after sunday when i have a good chance to put them through the round. But at first glance there's nothing that I wouldn't take, yet nothing that i see as a must have in every list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Vierzehn Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 The main thing that has kept me from really joining this conversation so far has been the one statement you made early on where you basically insulted myself and Gus (talking about us having our heads buried somewhere) and I admit I took offense to that and it has been hard to read the rest of your comments in an unbiased, unaffected point of view. That comment was directed only at Gus, and I believe he and I have settled up in private. As the main person who worked on the BSG, and as someone who knows you personally and sees you up at the Asylum on a regular basis, I can tell you that I do respect your opinion. And will take more time looking at what we have created here so far. I knew they were somebody's brainchild, and I knew I was telling somebody that I didn't like what they created. For what it's worth, I've no objection to the concept. I just think it's badly executed, and that can be fixed. Reaper's point system doesn't work properly on the low end of the damage track scale or the high end of the damage track scale. And just about everything on the BSG list is in one of those two categories. There isn't much of a cost multiplier for lots of SA's on a two damage track model, and that's what's throwing the whole thing wonky. But, I can also tell you that has not been unbalanced at all so far in playtesting. Sure, it has dominated a game or two, and it has been wiped out in a game or two. So, far it has not proven to be any more potent than your 1000 point crusader force with 13 healers and a handful of heavy cavalry in it. My thousand point list doesn't have 13 healers. It's more like 6 or 7. And when the cavalry it's swinging is Lion's Lancers, 3 of them is more than a handful. BTW, somebody borrowed my 1000 point Crusader list recently, and didn't do so well with it. It's not just the build of the list, it's also the execution of the play. Quite the opposite really, the crusaders mercy has gotten the better of the gnomes almost every playtest against the tin cans. The Crusaders and the Dwarves do have FA's that pretty well turn off the BSG FA. That's another reason why I don't like the BSG's. Against many (most, even) factions, the BSG FA is golden. Against Crusaders and Dwarves, it's fairly useless. Too much rock-paper-scissors factor there. That, and BSG's are very assault-oriented, whereas Crusaders and Dwarves are the two factions best suited to sucking up a big assault. Try giving the Scraggers the same stats and SA's as an Overlord warrior. 3 damage tracks, no toughness, decent DV, ~30 points each. I'll bet that would balance out the BSG list quite a bit. -StV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shakhak Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 ...snip... 3x skullbreakers (141pt): 9 mav 9 attacks, vs. DV 13. avg=6.3 hits vs. 4.2. Reptus win, with only 1 lost 3x Longstrikers (144pt): 3 mav 8 1st strikes, vs. DV 13. avg=1.8 hits .......................................6 mav 8 attacks, vs. DV 12. avg=4.2 hits vs. 4.2. Reptus win, with only 1 lost 4x clutchlings (120pt): 4 mav 8 1st strikes, vs. DV 13. avg=2.4 hits ....................................4 mav 8 attacks, vs. DV 11. avg=3.2 hits vs. 5.4. Reptus win, with only 2 lost ...snip... Some food for thought when comparing stats like this. Most models do not start with everyone in B2B. Someone gets the charge and some models have fearsome. In all 3 scenerios I would assume the Grub would get the charge since it has a higher speed and Improved Charge. It would attack and most likely kill whatever it charges. Then your remaining models would now have to make DIS checks to engage the beast, this means there is a fairly good chance that you get into B2B with only one of your models. When you attack with that one model he will most likely be killed with Defensive strikes. If you attack with two they both could be brought down if the worm is lucky. I'm not arguing the Grubs power one way or the other, but when you're comparing a models usefulness I think it's important to consider ALL of their abilities. In this case Mov, Fearsome, and Improved CHarge are important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reinchard Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 What about 25% mercenaries rule (and still not loosing faction SA's)? Is it coming a bit closer to existence? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.