Questions from last night's game

[psyberwolfe1]

Thursday night knarfy and I played a great game between his Blade Sisters and my Darkspawn. A couple of questions came up:

 

1. LOS Bow Sisters on a level 1 hill shooting at models on the ground. LOS traced through several standard size bases. The desired target was in b2b contact with friendly models. (Imagine a conga line with line towards archers.) Could the Bow Sisters hit the enemy target who was behind so many models?

 

2. When conducting Defensive Actions do they occur on a per opponent activation basis or per your activation? What I mean is that if Nasithe (Warmaster SA) is charged by a troop and she takes her defensive strikes against them and another troop activates and charges her then what happens? Does she get more Warmaster Defensive Strikes against the fresh attackers, or is she left without any Defensive Strikes? We played it as the former, but then that makes Warmaster heinous, which I think might not be the right way to play it.

[Hellsgate]

not sure about the first one. But in the second the former is correct. If you had a warmaster model and you oppenet had 3 troops and attacked that model in each of their activations, she's get three lots of defencive strikes.

[herzogbrian]

Thursday night knarfy and I played a great game between his Blade Sisters and my Darkspawn. A couple of questions came up:

 

1. LOS Bow Sisters on a level 1 hill shooting at models on the ground. LOS traced through several standard size bases. The desired target was in b2b contact with friendly models. (Imagine a conga line with line towards archers.) Could the Bow Sisters hit the enemy target who was behind so many models?

 

The way that I understand the rules, a base 1 sized model (std 1") does not block LOS if you are on a level 1 hill or higher. If there was a size 1 model within 2" of the target, the target would get cover.

 

Cheers,

Brian

[psyberwolfe1]

The way that I understand the rules, a base 1 sized model (std 1") does not block LOS if you are on a level 1 hill or higher. If there was a size 1 model within 2" of the target, the target would get cover.

 

Cheers,

Brian

 

What kind of cover?

[spiritual_exorcist]

Truthfully, LOS in this game is extremely controversial, if you want to dig up the many threads regarding this topic I think you will only begin to confuse yourself.

 

As it stands I think herzogbrian is correct, although there tends to be a 'Use common sense' criteria being applied by most players. I would say that a model in BtB would block LOS, while one within 2 inches would provide light cover. (page 66, models, I assume on a standard base, are listed as size 1 light cover).

 

I've pulled my hair out time and time again regarding cover and the LOS rules not being very clear. I've given up on worrying about it and now just try to use common sense as best as possible.

[vejlin]

There's a LOS clarification text on reapergames.com. It is equivalent to the LOS rules in the core rulebook just worded differently. I very much prefer the reapergames clarification, it is much clearer and much much easier to understand.

[spiritual_exorcist]

I had forgotten about that:

Line of Sight

Line of Sight is defined as a half-inch wide corridor connecting two Models. To establish this corridor, you draw a straight 1mm wide line from any part of the Attacking Model's base to any part of the Defending Model's base, and add a quarter inch on either side of this line. Only the center line needs to touch each Model's base.

 

There are 3 ways that LOS can be blocked:

 

1. A piece of Terrain or a Model, with a Size Value larger than both the attacking Model and the defending Model, is anywhere in the LOS corridor.

2. A Model with Size Value equal to the largest of the two Models (attacking Model and defending Model) is crossing the LOS corridor center line.

3. 2+ intervening inches of Light Woods / 1+ intervening inches of Heavy Woods.

 

Cover

If there is LOS, then Cover is granted to the defending Model in any of these 4 cases:

 

1. Defender is utilizing Light or Heavy Cover whose base size is larger than the Defender's (full cover, no shot allowed).

2. Defender is utilizing Heavy Cover whose base size is the same as the Defender's (-2 penalty).

3. Defender is utilizing Heavy Cover whose base size is one base size smaller than the Defender's (-1 penalty).

4. Defender is utilizing Light Cover whose base size is the same size as the Defender's (-1 penalty).

 

Note: 'utilizing cover' is defined in the 'Ranged Attacks and Cover' and 'Appropriate Use' sections on page 65 of the Core Rulebook.

 

The Common Sense Rule

Inevitably situations will occur that the rules just don't cover. Or, maybe you and your opponent just don't agree on how the rules apply to the situation at hand. In these situations, you and your opponent should agree on a modifier (or Blocked LOS) that makes the most sense to both of you. If you cannot agree:

A) Ask one of the judges for resolution, if you're playing in a tournament.

B) Roll a die to decide who is correct.

[vejlin]

very concise, unambiguous and easy to understand IMO.

[spiritual_exorcist]

The only thing that gets complicated is the addition of elevation, in my mind. That is supposed to change the size of a given model.

 

I just can't see the sense in a model on a level 1 hill being able to see over a model in BtB with its target, but I suppose it is a pretty minor thing, and not likely to occur too often.

[vejlin]

well the model in B2B can use the other model for cover in that situation. (I think)

Edited March 23, 2008 by vejlin

[spiritual_exorcist]

Are you sure, isn't the model shooting in that situation consider one size larger (assume base size one, elevation makes it size 2), which means the model in BtB would have to be larger than the model being shot at (assume size one) to block LOS?

[vejlin]

Cover and LOS are completely separate things. The LOS would clearly not be blocked per the LOS rules (as you point out), but since the model is in B2B it is very much within 2 inches of the other model and can use it as cover, if models can be used for cover, that is. Not sure models can be used for cover... I'll have to look that up.

 

A good example is a size 1 model (Model A) standing behind a size 2 wall (within 2 inches). A size 3 model (Model B) has LOS to Model A but can still not shoot at him because he's in complete cover. Conversely Model A CAN shoot at Model B.

 

I'm not sure if models can be used for cover any more though, I do seem to remember something about that being the case in the past....

Edited March 23, 2008 by vejlin

[spiritual_exorcist]

I would give a cover bonus, as the model in the example is the same size as the target.

 

And I'm pretty sure models provide Light cover.

 

But that is just my opinio. God how I don't want this can of worms opened again (at least it is a much smaller can now)

[vejlin]

The problem before was that a previous version of the clarification actually was incorrect and was not equivalent to the LOS rules in the book. That caused a LOT of confusion. Thankfully that is gone now and replaced with a clarification text that IMO is so much better.

 

The LOS rules still don't handle stuff like "hull down" but that shouldn't come up in most games anyway.

[psyberwolfe1]

The problem before was that a previous version of the clarification actually was incorrect and was not equivalent to the LOS rules in the book. That caused a LOT of confusion. Thankfully that is gone now and replaced with a clarification text that IMO is so much better.

 

The LOS rules still don't handle stuff like "hull down" but that shouldn't come up in most games anyway.

Especially since this isn't WH40K "Hull Down" shouldn't apply. For our game, since he and I believe in the "Golden Rule of Shooting," he and I agreed he couldn't hit me. Probably best since he was shooting at the Witch Queen, and she would have dropped the hurt on that unit. In the future we will prolly play it using cover rules.

 

Thank you for the clarifications.