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I calls it like I sees it, man. BL got their own forum and this place went dead. Coincidence? Sure, could be. I'm not a BL member so have no way of knowing what goes on there. Maybe a lot of people got bored at the same time. It could happen.

And what's so secret that the rest of us "unwashed masses" can't look at it? Rule changes? Have a read, we talk about rule changes all the time. We talk about new scenarios, new builds, new sculpts, Smurfs TM, scoring systems for tournaments, why Orba has a surfboard, Uru was broken and Han shot first! It's not like any thread on here is hundreds of posts long. We don't have that many people, even with the BLs involved, so there isn't that much "signal to noise". So Reaper can't use that as a reason to exclude people.

One man's opinion. Take it for what it's worth.

As administrator of our BL program, let me assure you that the BL team has had a private forum for several years. It is not a new development. "BL got their own forum and this place went dead" is completely inaccurate.

 

As for why game development is done in private, we do inhouse alpha-tests with employees only first. We get feedback over a period of time and use that feedback to produce a closed beta document which we circulate to BL to test with. They provide us with additional feedback which is used to produce (along with revisions to the closed beta documents themselves) the open beta document currently available. If we did all of those changes 100% in the public view, there would be riots. People would freak of the number and types of revisions tested, the frequnecy of them, and - in some cases - the bad idea-ness of some of them. I understand that you are concerned that post volume has diminished. And apparently you are offended that we're not publicly posting every single idea we have ever had. We test everything that is suggested. And not all suggestions need to be seen ...

 

I appreciate your feedback, and I am sorry if you have felt marginalized by our process. But in a similar vein - what have you seen of public beta that was made available on the Wizards website, or GW, or Privateer? Teases. Tidbits. Snippets. Let me elaborate:

 

We absolutely can "use that as a reason to exclude people". We are very concerned with public perception of our properties and systems, and too many changes too often is very costly in terms of PR. Heck - we had BL members leave and quit playing becuase the beta documents changed so often they felt like it reflected poorly on us. Imagine how every fan of Warlord would feel if during the 5 months we plan and test new changes, they saw new rules every week, sometimes rules being reverted back because they were bad ideas, and more? Imagine - 5 months a year where 2-3 times a week new rules are published. Seriously, the fallout from that would be catastrophic. Nobody would be sure any given day what the rules really were. So we test those 5 months behind closed doors.

 

Not to exclude you, but to protect ourselves.

 

To give us the freedom to make bad decisions and the time to correct them. The freedom to learn from our own mistakes without hurting the game. The freedom to evaluate, respond, adapt, and adjust without causing confusion. The Freedom to take the time necessary to get it right, because getting it wrong is inexcusable.

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A couple of things...

 

First, without putting too fine a point on it, I suggest that those that think that the Warlord forums aren't busy enough should "put their money where their mouth is". Why is it assumed that the BLs (or even Reaper as a whole for that matter) must be the ones responsible for generating topics here? Is there something I'm missing about the general availablity for forum members to hit the "New Topic" button at the top of the page? Post it, and they will come. BLs did not suddenly migrate to the BL-specific forum to the exclusion of the rest of the forums. We're still here, and we post when it is warranted. If you've got an idea for a new topic, post away.

 

Second, here's a quick quote from the BL site on what it means to be a Black Lightning member:

"Reaper appreciates its fans and always has. The Reaper extended family is now worldwide and has stories from all parts of the globe. Stories as varied as soldiers painting figures in the deserts in between missions to patients in hospitals eagerly awaiting their next casket works. Reaper will always be here for its fans and we hope our fans will always be there for us.

 

However, a wonderful Fan is not necessarily a good Black Lightning Team Member.

 

We expect Black Lightning Members to work hard, report in, act professional, and conduct themselves as responsible adults. The Black Lightning program is not for fans who simply want inside information as to what is "coming out next" from Reaper or who hope to get a few free products. If you cannot stay focused, have a track record of starting things and then quitting, or cannot act in a manner that is both professional and courteous then do not apply."

 

Just because BLs aren't posting here doesn't mean we're not doing anything to help the Warlord game. Personally, I had little involvement during the development of this year's RC08 update, but many other BLs were actively creating content, testing datacards, and discussing rules to bring it to everyone in at least a "battle-ready" form. And while that was happening, others of us (myself included) were out there demoing the game, running events at stores and conventions, and spreading the word in person.

 

So, now you have a brand-spankin' new RC08 document in your hands, ready for you to take a whack at and see if we missed anything. Play with it, twist it, bend it and try to break it. Then POST!, and we'll be there to discuss it with you. And if we're a little vague in our response, keep in mind that usually means that there is a reason for it, and our unique position of being viewed as representatives for Reaper but not having the official power to make announcements means that we often can't share info we might like to until we are given the ok by the powers that be.

 

~v

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And what's so secret that the rest of us "unwashed masses" can't look at it?

 

It's mainly due to the mutal secrecy pact between the Black Lighting and Illumanti. You have to have the satin jacket, and athletic supporter of strength to gain access. Sorry, dem is da rulz!

 

or so I've overhead.

 

Rule changes? Have a read, we talk about rule changes all the time. We talk about new scenarios, new builds, new sculpts,

 

Aside from the lack of overall focus by the average forum person? This thread is a good example. It's gone from, why is Warlord dead, to Those evil BL people are holding out on us. Snobs.

 

Seems to me it's very easy to get that satin jacket and magic jockstrap. Just become a BL member, it's not like it's defusing a nuclear blender at a Jimmy Buffet concert during a rendition of Margaretta Ville. An open forum on new-forthcoming products would go down hill quicker than a pig smeared with lard on a bobsled run.

 

If not, then no big, if Reaper had a problem with it, they'd change it.

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For God's sake, you people missed the most important part of all...HAN SHOT FIRST!

Sorry, I can't take anything seriously for too long. It's a flaw.

Once again, I calls 'em like I sees 'em. I've heard and read a bunch of times something akin to "that was discussed already on the BL forums". Great. I could go on about this but I think we've all made our points. I believe having a closed BL forum was a bad idea. No, I don't feel excluded. If I want Warlord talk I can go to a dozen forums (including this one), email a dozen players, or call a few people. In fact, I often feel a bit overwhelmed with Warlord info. Yes, designing by a design team has to happen in secret. I'm a game designer myself and completely understand. Oh well, point either made or not made. Time to get back to my own game design work, which by the way is done in a concrete bunker, behind a steel vault door, and a tiger with a laser rifle stapled to its head outside!

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To give us the freedom to make bad decisions and the time to correct them. The freedom to learn from our own mistakes without hurting the game. The freedom to evaluate, respond, adapt, and adjust without causing confusion. The Freedom to take the time necessary to get it right, because getting it wrong is inexcusable.

 

 

Amen.

 

This is what good game development/testing is about and the consumer benefits from every inch of it.

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From what i've seen, the whole BL forum issue is more "What's in the box... I want to see what's in the box. Why can't I see!"

 

Also many of the older topics were asking for a refined view on this rule, mentioning this or that was broken and asking what others think, pleading for a type of model for this army or asking for tips with army builds. As the game has matured and developed. We've gotten those refinements. Rules/models have been fixed. Armylists have been expanded. And most of us have learnt to build our own armies reliably. The problem isn't that all the topics have been moveing to the BL forum, it that all the topics have already been created, discussed and answered.

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Egads, I've opened a large can of worms.

 

Ok, my whole reason for starting this topic was to help motivate the BL into bringing discussions about RC08 from the BL forum (where is was totally appropriate for them to be discussed while in development) over to the public forum now that we are in open Beta. That is it. I'm not talking about development, I'm talking about current playtest battles, army builds, tactics with the new stuff.

 

I'm not suggesting the BL team are Elitists at all, if I implied that accidentally I apologize. Merely that maybe since the BL forum is where the much of RC08 came out of, ideas were still being discussed there that might now be appropriate for this forum where we can all provide feedback (I repeat once again, the game is in open Beta, you should be able to express many of your thoughts here now without violating any sort of non-disclosure act). Reaper having and supporting the BL forum is completely appropriate, and I never said otherwise.

 

I hoped the BL team were on the BL forum being active, otherwise it just means interest in the game itself is being lost by some of the people who were the most passionate about it. I was merely speculating that perhaps one of the reasons traffic is low these days is that BL members are congregating over on the other forum, I've got no evidence of that beyond that I know alot of RC08 came from the BL Team, I'm not a BL member and I have no intention of ever being one but that doesn't mean I don't support them (And now they are talking about how much they hate that Spiritual Exorcist in their secret little spot ::P: ).

 

I was never out to create animosity, just point out that not a whole lot is going on, and maybe spur everyone into becoming more involved, I talked directly about the BL team, but it wasn't my intent to single them out exclusively like I apparently did. I would just like see a bit of an adrenaline shot to the community, and I thought the BL members might help provide it.

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Well, I've been reading THESE forums more since we started discussing the RC08 changes in the BL forums. I like the direction the game is headed.

 

That said, I've hit the REPORT button here more than I've hit the REPLY button...

 

Well, if you wouldn't get your panties in a bunch over a little controversy and actually hit the REPLY button more often maybe this thread wouldn't have been started at all.... :angry:

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SE posted a question: Why is it dead in here?

My opinion was: The most vocal members of the forums have their own closed forum.

The next questions was: How can we change that?

My opinion was: Get them back in here where the general public can see Warlord has an active membership.

You want to show curious browsers that Warlord is supported by not only the company but by the fans. I'm against a closed forum, but we've gone through that before. It's just my opinion.

...han shot first...

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For what it's worth, as someone who doesn't really post in here in general (cause I'm more of a painter than a player-the casual game once or twice a year doesn't really make me a competitor and we demo in a team here, paint and play kinda thing) let me assure you that the wonderfully exciting topics in the BL forum include such stimulating topics as "Hey Gus is off line, post concerns for him here to find easily when he gets back" and these are concerns brought up HERE too. Or "so, someone's asking for clarification and I want clarification myself". They're not about builds, rules, what's broken or isn't, or anything that's exciting. And literally, the FIRST AND ONLY place the beta stuff has been posted is right here. Yup, that's right, it's NOT in the BL forums. There's nothing crazy going on in other forums that you all can't see. There's just a lull as combinations are tried, builds are decided, and things are generally tested.

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Personally, I check this forum far more often.

 

There was a period of a few months were I didn't even log into the forums because I didn't check the BL forums, since I wasn't running demos or events I didn't need too. The topics here, with the "unwashed masses" are the ones I like to read and participate in. I even stopped bathing to try and fit in, just check my BL status.

 

Of course now that I have a shop to play at again, I may dive back into those forums. You know, to discuss what others are giving to the "unwashed masses" as prizes or to find out where I can get some cheap brushes for a unexpectedly large paint and take.

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For what it's worth, as someone who doesn't really post in here in general (cause I'm more of a painter than a player-the casual game once or twice a year doesn't really make me a competitor and we demo in a team here, paint and play kinda thing) let me assure you that the wonderfully exciting topics in the BL forum include such stimulating topics as "Hey Gus is off line, post concerns for him here to find easily when he gets back" and these are concerns brought up HERE too. Or "so, someone's asking for clarification and I want clarification myself". They're not about builds, rules, what's broken or isn't, or anything that's exciting. And literally, the FIRST AND ONLY place the beta stuff has been posted is right here. Yup, that's right, it's NOT in the BL forums. There's nothing crazy going on in other forums that you all can't see. There's just a lull as combinations are tried, builds are decided, and things are generally tested.

 

Actually, there is things over there, so it seems, that I would like to know about ....

 

A monster compendium book is in the works? Then I might as well stop trying to figure out data cards for any monster scenarios I got tossing around in my head, and not bother posting about it here like the thread I already started. Is there any tentative due date? Is it actually a book to be printed, released as a PDF, or given out in small doses through Casket Works (I like that idea) or some other magazine? Or, maybe that hasn't been decided yet, either.

 

How about posting a list of some of the things under discussion in that elite :upside: forum so the rest of us know that something is going on? Maybe even ask us about something that the BLs are having trouble figuring out? It feels kind of pointless to post some ideas if some of those are already being discussed in the closed forum, especially if BLs are restricted in replying to certain topics in the open forum.

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Personally, I check this forum far more often.

 

There was a period of a few months were I didn't even log into the forums because I didn't check the BL forums, since I wasn't running demos or events I didn't need too. The topics here, with the "unwashed masses" are the ones I like to read and participate in. I even stopped bathing to try and fit in, just check my BL status.

 

Of course now that I have a shop to play at again, I may dive back into those forums. You know, to discuss what others are giving to the "unwashed masses" as prizes or to find out where I can get some cheap brushes for a unexpectedly large paint and take.

 

 

Welcome to the slime pit! ::D:

 

*rolls over*

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