Leap question--RC 2008

[wal enalut]

Played a game earlier tonight agaisnt the Lupine force under the new RC Beta and we disagreed about whether a large base model could leap over 2 models together (a Large base and a cavalry base). Although we resolved the dispute by a roll of the dice, I was interested in getting an official rulling and/or a sense of the forum.

 

The question is whentere a large base model (1.5" base) can leap over 2 regular base models in base to base contact; meaning that to clear the group, the model has to leap over 2" worth of model bases?

 

My reading of the rules is that there needs to be suffcient space for teh model to land. For Play balance issues, I think this is required because othersiew I see no effective means to counter the Lupine Army that can leap over any number of troops and with an 8" base move, that means that it can regularly leap over at least 3 models to land on a normal move.

 

Another issue that came up was whether a leap can be done as the a charge movement (the additiaonl 4" of improved charge by the lupines).

 

What do people think?

 

My feeling is that the text should be modified so that a model with leap is limited to a single leap consisting of the length of its base once a movement (i.e. 1 leap of 1.5" for a large based model on a regualr move, and 2 leraps of 1.5" each on a double move). I also do not think that the leap movement shoudl eb able to be used as the bonus charge movement.

[Stubbdog]

As this is still in beta testing, we are still trying to answer those questions ourselves and so we do appreciate your feedback into this.

 

At this time, it is considered that a model may only jump over bases equal to or smaller than itself. But it would only be limited by the distance. That is a model with an 8 inch move would make a single move leap of 4 inches. (as every inch worth of jump is equal to 2 inches of movement - just like moving thru rough terrain). So, a double move leap would be up to 8 inches for that same model.

 

At this time a model may not add inthe additional bonus charge movement into its leap, but it could still make a land based charge following a leap.

 

Your argument is that it would be near impossible to stop a Korborlas model from leaping over any defense to get somewhere on the other side. And for the most part you are correct. Unless you spread models around so that a large base could not fit anywhere, it would be hard to stop a Korborlas model from leaping whereever it wanted to. On the flip side, in general, the Korborlas faction models are very expensive and so under normal (not all) circumstances they will be at a severe model disadvantage so even if they pull off a leap, they will be subject to some degree of swarming.

 

 

But again it is still in beta and so this is still all subject to change based on feedback like yours.

[Hellsgate]

It's my thoughts that the leap can be used as many times as you wish and in the charge mov (so long as it's strait). The penalty to movement should be fine to allow it. If you're able to reduce your move by 3" or more and still make the charge you should be able to.

[spiritual_exorcist]

I'd like to see this SA limited somewhat.

 

I'd like to see a Leap movement have to be declared at the beginning of any non-combat action, be in a straight line (this isn't noted anywhere but changing direction in mid air doesn't make sense), and be for the entirety of a Models movement.

 

So a Lupine Slayer who wanted to Leap would have to declare so at the beginning of a move action, would have the whole of its movement halved for that particular activation, would have to move in a straight line, bit as a result could move over any object or model of Large size or smaller. In addition, because of the limitations I've imposed I would consider allowing the Leap to be part of a Charge (of course with the Charge portion of the movement being halves just like the rest of the models movement.

 

So a Lupine Slayer could use a move action to:

Move 8 normally

Move+Charge 8+4=12 (last 4 in a straight line)

Leap 4 in a straight line

Leap+Charge 4+2=6 (entire movement in a straight line).

 

If we are going to call it Leap, then make it a heroic full-on Leap action.

[Hellsgate]

I was thinking more it would work something like. Leap over model A (x2 mov of leaped models base), land. Continue moving (normal speed/movment), leap model B (x2), land. Charge at which ever direction.

 

Long story short, I was seeing it more like a game of leap frog, where you jump over one person, keep runing, till you jump over the next. The way you seem to protray it is just long jump, we have hover that does that at no penalty.

[spiritual_exorcist]

I would prefer to see it as one large jump rather than a leap frog type bouncing move (If you want bounds call it Bounce ). Leaping should not appear effortless, we're talking about models being jumped over and weapons to be avoided, not just regularly spaced hurdles. Hoverers have wings, Leaping uses Legs.

 

PS: I've got issues with Hover too.

[Hellsgate]

...Leaping should not appear effortless, we're talking about models being jumped over and weapons to be avoided, not just regularly spaced hurdles...

Well if you want logic. I have leaped over someone without breaking a stride (hands on shoulders feat each side). For something with an anatimy built for it there's a good chance they'd be able to do it at half speed with weapons involved. But I see your point (for both leap and hover).

[spiritual_exorcist]

Merely offering up options, I don't mind the way the ability is laid out now. Except Leap moves need to be defined as straight lines.

 

Possibly it would over complicate things but I think it would be nice to see Reach models somehow limit the effectiveness of Leap Models jumping over them. I know if I was a Leaping jumping over Pikemen might be something worth second guessing.

[wal enalut]

Thanks for the quick feedback.

 

My biggest concern with Leap is that without completely surrounding spell casters, I don't see how you can keep Lupines from being able to hit casters with ease.

 

Although I like the idea of the SA, I think that permitting it to be used multiple times is a game breaker. The ability to leapfrog multiple models, by only paying 2X movement for the distance leaped overpowers what are already quite powerful modles.

 

That being said, I still think only 1 leap of the models base size should be permitted.

 

If the consensus is to permit the leaping of multiple models then I think the entire movement needs to be in a single straight line--including any charge.

 

Finally, (and mybe the most effective) what about changing the SA be to make a leap cost 3X movement (hey even if this is a supernatural warewolf to clear a model it still has to jump higher than it does longer).

 

PS--Although Korbiolas Models are expensive, they are not more than 2X as expenive as most other comparable role models and their stats are easily comparable to similarly costed models. If one were to spread out your force to defend agaisnt a leap, then you permit tehe Lupines (even on a large base) from surrounding your frontline models and deealing with them in detail.

[vejlin]

From a purely real world physics perspective I really agree with the "straight line movement" restriction on Leaps. It just makes no sense to leap really far and change directions in mid air.

[Stubbdog]

We shouldnt change the value of the penalty from 2x to 3x just because these particular models with leap happen to have a move 8. In the future there might be, I dont know, say a frog warrior that might have leap but less move.

 

SE, the one example you did not illustrate that I am curious to get your opinion on: the double move (double leap). In your opinoin would it be two separate leaps? One for each move, since they are separate actions, or would you be allowing, since it is a double move, one huge leap, in this case 4+4+2 = 10 inch leap and charge?

[wal enalut]

I agree that one should not entirely base the rules for an SA on the stats for a spcific modele or force. However, I think that leap is to powerful of a SA as it is currently written/used. Thus some form of limitation should be placed upon it. The most elegant (i.e. least complicated) solution appears to be to require movement in a stright line and to increase teh movement cost from 2X to 3X; and if you wish to permit a model to leap entire groups, so be it; butdoing so will be much more difficult with those restrictions put in place.

 

Once more I generally favor the SA, and I like the Korbalds force, but think that that SA is to powerful and needs to be toned down.

[shakhak]

I agree that the jump should be in a straight line.

 

I don't think the movement modifier should be increased.

 

A Lupine has a Mov of 8. To leap a model he must move his ENTIRE base over the model. So he will need to leap ~2.5", costing him 5"s of movement at a minimum. That leaves very little movement to pursue whatever is behind this front line; and all of this is assuming that there is space for his fat 1.5" base.

[wal enalut]

@shakhak

 

Not that I am disagreeing with you (I had not thought of forcing the clearence of the ENTIRE BASE) but on what are you baseing this requirment?

[vejlin]

you're not allowed to cross other Models' bases, so the jump has to take you completely over the model.