Dilvish the Deliverer Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Came across an interesting article..Arstechnica Illinois tried to legislate who could buy violent video games. It was challenged ruled unconstitutional and the state had to pay $500k in legal fees. The money was "raided" for 6 different departments including the Dept of Health and now Medicaid payments are late. I'd hate for that to be my tax dollars at work. Thankfully the minders havn't set their sights on my wargaming. they can have my pewter when they pry it from my cold dead fingers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hinton Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Yeah, the taxpayers definitely paid for this one. The government continues to try and legislate things like this when they should know it's going to get shot down. I find it interesting that the governor that started this said: "We know violent and sexually explicit video games pose a direct risk to kids, so we should make every effort to keep them out of kids' hands." I'd like to see the research and studies that prove this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kristof65 Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Too many people don't realize the statement "There outta be a law..." should always be immediately answered by "How do we pay for it?" If you can't answer that question, then there shouldn't be a law. If I were a taxpayer in Illinois, I'd be screaming to my legislature about at least part of those legal fees be paid back out of the operating funds of all those people in the legislature who voted for the bill. If someone's medicaid payment is going to be late because of it, then the senaators and representatives who caused the problem in the first place shouldn't get donuts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug's Workshop Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 Dilvish, I don't know how long you've been painting, but you're my age, so you might remember . . . . They did try to come after us wargamers. Many years ago (close to 20?), in New York state (I think) a law was passed or a lawsuit filed that would have banned lead figures from things like miniature doll houses and model railroads and, yes, even lead miniatures. "Protect the children" was one of the rallying cries. "The Environment" was another. You'll have to excuse me for the specifics of the case being lost to the dustbin that is my brain. But I remember that I was trying to collect a high elf army for Warhammer, and when I heard that the response from the miniature industry was to change the mix of metals to something that would cost two to four times as much, I went right down to the game store and purchased a whole heck of a lot of lead. There was never any official action, but the threat of lawsuits made GW, Ral Partha, and Reaper (as well as everyone else in the market) change their formula to the mixes we have today. I still carry scars from that time. Its probably why I have a sign in my cubicle stating "My carbon footprint is bigger than your carbon footprint." Alas, government is the only endeavor where failure is repeatedly rewarded, mainly because someone else gets to suffer the consequences. Okay, I'm gonna go hole up in my cabin out in the wilderness now before I start getting people angry with me! Cheers! -Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VelveteenRabbit Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 You know, I'm kind of ok with that one. Heavy metal poisoning is really not good. And I'm pretty sure California actually did write a law on it. I was living there at the time, and that's not a market you want to ignore. Heh, and here I was trying to figure out how long ago that was thinking, "no way it's been twenty years..." But ya, I think you're right. Damn it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heisler Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 Dilvish, I don't know how long you've been painting, but you're my age, so you might remember . . . . They did try to come after us wargamers. Many years ago (close to 20?), in New York state (I think) a law was passed or a lawsuit filed that would have banned lead figures from things like miniature doll houses and model railroads and, yes, even lead miniatures. "Protect the children" was one of the rallying cries. "The Environment" was another. You'll have to excuse me for the specifics of the case being lost to the dustbin that is my brain. But I remember that I was trying to collect a high elf army for Warhammer, and when I heard that the response from the miniature industry was to change the mix of metals to something that would cost two to four times as much, I went right down to the game store and purchased a whole heck of a lot of lead. There was never any official action, but the threat of lawsuits made GW, Ral Partha, and Reaper (as well as everyone else in the market) change their formula to the mixes we have today. I still carry scars from that time. Its probably why I have a sign in my cubicle stating "My carbon footprint is bigger than your carbon footprint." -Doug NY didn't just try they succeeded and hence the metal mixtures that you see on the shelves today. GAMA even tried to fight that one, and lost. Many thought it was the end of miniature gaming, at least in the US yet here we are today still pushing metal around on the tables. Now some 20+ years later pre-painted plastics are the end of miniature gaming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dilvish the Deliverer Posted March 28, 2008 Author Share Posted March 28, 2008 Doug, Twenty years already...thanks for making me feel my age. You're right. I started just before the shift to "lead free Ralaidium" i think it was. I don't really miss the lead though. I know too many people in the shipbuilding industries that are suffering now because of heavy metal poisoning (as well as asbestos but that is another subject). My problem is that it seems that it seems legislation is beginning to be seen as the answer to everything. Common sense isn't so common anymore. I used to run around my school yard playing cowboys and indians, or cops and robbers or what have you dealing imaginary death and dismemberment to to my classmates. Yet I didn't turn out to be a psychopathic killer. Why is it assumed that children these days will? I just think that people need outlets for their energies, whatever those outlets may be and if you take one away (be it videogames or skateboarding or another of the many things that people try to legislate out of existence) they will become resentful and you might just create the very behavior you were trying to prevent. Eh, but what do I know. I'm just a warmongering member of the military establishment, with a vested interest in there never being and end to violence. And @ Heisler, As far as pre-paints go, the argument has been going on long and strong in the LE sub-fourm, but my take of the whole thing is that metal will still go on strong. Most of the people that buy plastic weren't interested in metal at all. And some of those who get teir start with the plastics will come over to the bright and shiney side. But that's just my opinion and you know what they say about opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Sundseth Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 NY didn't just try they succeeded and hence the metal mixtures that you see on the shelves today. GAMA even tried to fight that one, and lost. Many thought it was the end of miniature gaming, at least in the US yet here we are today still pushing metal around on the tables. Now some 20+ years later pre-painted plastics are the end of miniature gaming. As a legal matter, NY lost. The suit was fought out, the law was voided, and the prosecutor barely avoided sanctions. As a practical matter, the threat that the suit represented caused all the US and Canadian miniatures companies and many of the European companies to change their metal mixtures to lead-free. (Some imported miniatures use lead alloys even now -- see Foundry and Rackham.) For reference, the bioavailability of metallic lead is very low. IIRC, the lawsuit claimed that chewing on a lead miniature all day long results in lower blood lead levels than drinking the first glass of water from a faucet with lead washers. The real problems with ingesting lead come from lead oxide (the pigment in lead white). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heisler Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 NY didn't just try they succeeded and hence the metal mixtures that you see on the shelves today. GAMA even tried to fight that one, and lost. Many thought it was the end of miniature gaming, at least in the US yet here we are today still pushing metal around on the tables. Now some 20+ years later pre-painted plastics are the end of miniature gaming. As a legal matter, NY lost. The suit was fought out, the law was voided, and the prosecutor barely avoided sanctions. As a practical matter, the threat that the suit represented caused all the US and Canadian miniatures companies and many of the European companies to change their metal mixtures to lead-free. (Some imported miniatures use lead alloys even now -- see Foundry and Rackham.) For reference, the bioavailability of metallic lead is very low. IIRC, the lawsuit claimed that chewing on a lead miniature all day long results in lower blood lead levels than drinking the first glass of water from a faucet with lead washers. The real problems with ingesting lead come from lead oxide (the pigment in lead white). So NY lost, but in effect won Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kristof65 Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 My problem is that it seems that it seems legislation is beginning to be seen as the answer to everything. Common sense isn't so common anymore. I used to run around my school yard playing cowboys and indians, or cops and robbers or what have you dealing imaginary death and dismemberment to to my classmates. Yet I didn't turn out to be a psychopathic killer. Why is it assumed that children these days will? I just think that people need outlets for their energies, whatever those outlets may be and if you take one away (be it videogames or skateboarding or another of the many things that people try to legislate out of existence) they will become resentful and you might just create the very behavior you were trying to prevent. Did anyone catch South Park's episode this week? Kid's started using male cat urine to get high, so the town outlawed cats, thanks to legislation pushed through by Kyle's dad. Kenny was addicted to the stuff, the other three were trying to get him off of it, and Cartman was hiding cat's in his attic (ala Anne Frank) because they were "innocent". Anyway, the whole story winds up with the moral that the cats weren't the problem, the addicts were. Very much the same situation you mentioned, but done in the usual irreverant and sarcastic South Park style. As for the minis, I recall the NY case distinctly, we had our own game store at the time - had just started it, in fact, and the increased prices threw off our budget. The thing that galled me in the whole case was the mis-information about the lead miniatures in the first place. Most every gamer/painter I knew at the time was aware it was lead, was aware of the hazards, and the likelyhood of their children getting into their miniature collection was much, much less than a child eating paint chips. Most of us had more knowledge about the hazards than some of the principles in the NY case. I'm kind of glad that the metals got changed, but more from the perception standpoint. Heck, recently here on the forum (well, within the last year, anyway), there was an anecdote from some one about a paint and take they were running where some parent freaked out and wouldn't let her kid participate because she heard the mini's contained trace amounts of lead. IMO, in the long run, due to the mis-information, even without legislation trying to force the change, not making the switch would have hurt our hobby more. But that's a view in hindsight, I'm not sure I would have predicted the same thing at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougrob173 Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 Wait so now parents actually have to watch their kids and be involved in raising them? I was hoping the laws would raise my kids for me, so I can do other things like not being a parent. Sheesh that stinks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug's Workshop Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 Wow, for "Mostly Harmless" status, it sure looks like I roused some rabble. Hurray for me! For all the young 'uns on the forum, there was a time when a single mini cost about 50 cents (or less!). I was ticked when they hit $1.25 . . . and now I'm happy to see a fig for $4! Ahh, to be young again . . . . I hope everyone enjoyed the trip down memory lane. I knew I didn't remember all the facts exactly as it happened. Glad others are around to make the corrections. I do remember that that was what caused me to start understanding politics. "They can end my hobby?!?! How can that be?" I think I'm gonna go dig up some High Elf Swordmasters and drink a pint in rememberance of the good ole' days. -Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastman Posted March 29, 2008 Share Posted March 29, 2008 Came across an interesting article..Arstechnica Illinois tried to legislate who could buy violent video games. It was challenged ruled unconstitutional and the state had to pay $500k in legal fees. The money was "raided" for 6 different departments including the Dept of Health and now Medicaid payments are late. I'd hate for that to be my tax dollars at work. this will probably get the topic moved to Beekeepers, but 500k$ is nothing compared to the amount lost each year in IL government due to corruption and waste. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warlordgarou Posted March 29, 2008 Share Posted March 29, 2008 I'm kind of glad that the metals got changed, but more from the perception standpoint. Heck, recently here on the forum (well, within the last year, anyway), there was an anecdote from some one about a paint and take they were running where some parent freaked out and wouldn't let her kid participate because she heard the mini's contained trace amounts of lead. IMO, in the long run, due to the mis-information, even without legislation trying to force the change, not making the switch would have hurt our hobby more. But that's a view in hindsight, I'm not sure I would have predicted the same thing at the time. I remember the whole lead miniatures lawsuit business. 20 years sounds about right - I'd place it somewhere about '88 or '89, since it was after I started playing 40k. Anyway, on a paint-related note, when I was in college, our RA almost wrote us up for a fire code violation for our acrylic paints. It took some time to convince him that water-based paints probably weren't a fire hazard, and while he didn't like our cans of spray primer, we pointed out that he had far more cans of aerosolized products than we did. . . .plus an illegal hot plate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Porsenna Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 Too many people don't realize the statement "There outta be a law..." should always be immediately answered by "How do we pay for it?" If you can't answer that question, then there shouldn't be a law. Sorry to disagree, but I would change that to: Too many people don't realize the statement "There outta be a law..." should always be immediately answered by "How much freedom do you want to sacrifice?" If you don't like the answer to that question, then there shouldn't be a law. This is feel-good "for the children!" legislation, and frankly I'd be more concerned with the restrictions on freedoms it represents than how much it costs. Ultimately it fails to address the root problems, nor does it put power into the hands of parents, where it should belong... Damon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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