Dwarves

[rgtriplec]

I played the Reapercon spies scenerio twice, against a well balance goblin horde that had the warlord, 2 giants, lunk, gonda, skeeters, worm bait and a maxed out Neek troop of 23.

 

I had four troops Skadi and valana both with maxed out valkyries, and two fodder troops of Dingi, Gundor and 3 spears each and a totem.

 

In both games all the spies from both armies exited the board.

 

The first game I won on points by a pretty wide margin, but not one of my opponents spells worked. The second came down to the final tough check, which I rolled a 9.

 

All in all the Valkyrie is about as good of model as I've ever played. The Healer SA was very helpful, I used it only a few times, maybe 3 per game, but they were critical times and saved the model from being looted the next activation.

 

The totem and Smite/evil/1 were the real heroes of the game, having 18 models with Mav 7 and MA 3 and Warmaster was a killer.

[Saint Vierzehn]

The Mountain God sublist requires little skill to build an effective force or to play it successfully. Any half-wit who can figure out that 53 points for a 4DT model with DV 12, 3 MAV 5 attacks, warmaster, toughness, and healer is a good deal can be successful with the list.

 

I really wish I had not been so distracted by hammering the BSG's back from the abominations that they were during playtesting to pay a little more attention to other lists. One unit of a dozen valkyries on a list might actually require a little thinking in execution to win with. But two? You would have to be a total idiot not to give at least an adequate performance with 20 tough, high-DV, good-at-melee healers. It's the sort of thing that many good players would shun simply because it doesn't give a good opportunity to differentiate a really good player from an average one.

 

-StV.

[rgtriplec]

The Mountain God sublist requires little skill to build an effective force or to play it successfully. Any half-wit who can figure out that 53 points for a 4DT model with DV 12, 3 MAV 5 attacks, warmaster, toughness, and healer is a good deal can be successful with the list.

 

I really wish I had not been so distracted by hammering the BSG's back from the abominations that they were during playtesting to pay a little more attention to other lists. One unit of a dozen valkyries on a list might actually require a little thinking in execution to win with. But two? You would have to be a total idiot not to give at least an adequate performance with 20 tough, high-DV, good-at-melee healers. It's the sort of thing that many good players would shun simply because it doesn't give a good opportunity to differentiate a really good player from an average one.

 

-StV.

 

The list was designed for facing a goblin horde, I was supposed to be giving my opponent a hard test before Reapercon. As far as Tough goes, it is the dwarfs thing, 12 of the 14 soldier types have it, so anything I have to field in a dwarf list would have been tough. Dwarfs also have high DVs. I could have brought a mixture of the bread and butter dwarfs that are generally in everyones builds: warriors, Shieldmaidens and Bears but then the DVs would either be as high, higher, or higher with deflect. I guess fielding a mixture of three soldier that are better than Valkyries would make me a better player.

 

The Valkyries were chosen, not because of the Healer ability, but because they are better at melee than Shieldmaidens against evil. I wouldn't take bears because I generally don't play anything but standard based models. Forgemaidens are too weak to be an anchor type unit, against a horde. I like the daughters, but goblin warriors have deflect, and spending points on a single ranged attack, that goes 12", when I can get three MAs and Warmasters seems like a bad investment against a horde. Magic seems risky against a horde to me.

 

Also Touch of the Goddess is the entire faction ability, the others were only created because there weren't enough female models and another soldier and Warlord were needed. Since Healer is the sublists only ability, you better get used to seeing a lot of Valkyrie. Because they'll be in everyone that runs the lists builds.

Considering I only used the healer FA about 3 times a game the fact that they have it is really a moot point, because if you knew anything about my play style, you'd know I generally take multiple Ivars and a cleric in every troop.

 

I do. I still use Ivar. The last Dwarf game I played I had Heryk as a caster with Ivar as his elite, Logrim was my heavy Captain also with Ivar and Freya had one too. He is the only healer I use for the healer SA. He looks weak melee-wise compaired to the other dwarf casters but compaired to other clerics in general he is a tank. I play Bulls too and use Ombur the same way, the two are very similar.

 

Thats from the closed Dwarf thread of 2007, post 168. So, I'd have done three healings, probably a lot more with any default list I brought. I actually used the SA pretty sparingly, only when a model was on the last track or already stunned.

 

The Mountain God sublist requires little skill to build an effective force or to play it successfully. Any half-wit who can figure out that 53 points for a 4DT model with DV 12, 3 MAV 5 attacks, warmaster, toughness, and healer is a good deal can be successful with the list.

 

I guess there are a lot of dwarf playing half-wits . The general consensus of the dwarf players that I've talked to, that have actually played the list is that it is a hard list to build and play. Most feel it is too limiting. There is no Piercers or range beyond 12", no reach, so the SM have no trencher, only one unique cleric, no Bane, no March of the Pipes, no disable models, little speed. It's an almost pure melee army, and hard to build and play if you don't want pure melee.

 

All dice rolls and initiative being equal, the better player is the one that wins. It's your job to beat my list, even if it is one dimentional. I've played armies that were nothing but mixed cavalry, 90% Lion Lancers, all archer elves, and Razig with 20ish Bone Marine and up to three or four Soul Cannons, goblins with 4 hill giants, and all first strikers. It's my job to beat whatever I face.

 

I'm curious what would you field against a 1500 point goblin horde?

[jdripley]

Simmer down now...

 

Every opponent that I've played has always groaned when I put shieldmaidens down. They don't groan when I put warriors down because they're not as gun-shy, but after the battle they shake their heads that the "not shieldmaidens" did so well.

 

Dwarves are a no nonsense faction. It's their thing to be stubbornly good in melee and otherwise not extremely versatile.

[rgtriplec]

Simmer down now...

 

Every opponent that I've played has always groaned when I put shieldmaidens down. They don't groan when I put warriors down because they're not as gun-shy, but after the battle they shake their heads that the "not shieldmaidens" did so well.

 

Dwarves are a no nonsense faction. It's their thing to be stubbornly good in melee and otherwise not extremely versatile.

 

So, have you played the sublist models yet? Wildbill played them a few weeks ago. He seems to like Skadi as a hero, and the Forgemaidens. He didn't care for the Dire Bears because they aren't as beefy as what he's use to. I think all the new models are pretty good, we really tried to fill the gaps that we thought the entire faction had, and make the models useful in both lists.

 

When I was working on the list with Gus, I put a sub-list within the sublist. Freya, Valana, Gwyddis, Margara, Annasha, Stone Spirit, Lesser Stone, Forgemaidens and Daughters are all Fearless. It makes the Daughters and FM work extremely well togeather because you can use the Daughters 12" range right into melee and not shake anyone. So, the short range becomes less important because they can stick right with the melee troops, using them as a screen.

[Saint Vierzehn]

The Mountain God sublist requires little skill to build an effective force or to play it successfully. Any half-wit who can figure out that 53 points for a 4DT model with DV 12, 3 MAV 5 attacks, warmaster, toughness, and healer is a good deal can be successful with the list.

I guess there are a lot of dwarf playing half-wits .

 

Oh, I don't think I would say that everyone who plays the Mountain sublist is a half-wit, as you've implied. But I'm quite certain I could find at least one person who is.

 

One of the flaws in Reaper's point costing model is that it does not take into account synergistic effects of SA's. Healer SA is especially susceptible to that, since its usefulness is largely dependent on the other models standing next to the healer. A healer in a goblin list (where all the models have one damage track and no toughness) would be pretty useless. But a healer on a list where everything has 4 damage tracks, good DV, toughness, good melee attacks, warmaster, and healer... well, that's another story.

 

In the current game economy, valkyries are priced about right when they're not carrying healer SA. Add healer SA, and they're undercosted about 25 points each. Put 18 of them on a list, and you've effectively boosted the point value of your list by about 450. That's disproportionate, and the result of bad design of the sublist.

 

-StV.

[rgtriplec]

But you could use that rational for most if not all FAs. When I face Crusaders, I generally lose a couple hundred points in models to them that they heal up and use against me. The pain cage is the same way. Nefsokar all get Ranger. Elves get Woodstrider, Ridge runner , sure shot which are much more valueable than healer.

 

Considering Healer is the sublist's only real FA its not out of line with other FAs. You may take all Valkyries, but using healer is not something you can do all the time. You'll generally have to choose, do I want to hit this giant three more times and drop it to its last track or save this 53 point Valkyrie and hope the giant doesn't get healed itself and kill both models next round. Using the SA on an expensive melee model is much different than having a few clerics without spells or hospitailers using it. The Valkyrie models was designed so you could use the SA, but it would be a sacrifice to use it. They could have been designed like a Hospitailer. True, no one, would field 18, but they'd still field 3 or four in two troops and I'd bet they'd be doing a lot more healing than 18 of the current version. Because that would be their sole purpose.

 

Proxy a Valkyrie list, do a little 750 game. Valana, 5 valkyie, Skadi, 5 valkyrie, Book of tactics, amulet.

 

745 points

12 models

2 troops

3 cards

1 spy

 

I think you'll see you'd much rather be using them in melee than healing a wound.

[Saint Vierzehn]

I think you'll see you'd much rather be using them in melee than healing a wound.

 

 

Nope. I'd much rather have them occupy table space and staying alive. That's what wins most scenarios. Those were the key factors in all 3 Reapercon rounds this year. Killing stuff is a secondary concern.

 

Besides, I don't have to use my valkyries in melee. With 3 MAV 5 attacks plus warmaster, my opponent will be using them in melee for me. Offense is something valkyries do in their spare time. And that's part of what makes a combination of warmaster + DV + healer on non-unique models a very bad idea in this game.

 

Once I've chosen and occupied the ground I want with the valkyries, my opponent must either concede that ground to me (in which case I win), or try to engage me on it, in which case I beat him up with warmaster and heal up on my activation (and I win). There's no significant skill involved in building the list, and no significant skill involved in playing it sucessfully.

 

-StV.

[jdripley]

Or drop an AOE spell on them, shoot one or two with arrows, then charge in and finish two or three off.

 

A cleric with a Hold spell would cramp the style of a pack of Valkries trying to hold on to their patch of ground.

 

Course, there are some who would cry foul that magic itself isn't cost effective... I think it has its place, and many dwarf tactics are prime reasons why magic is a good thing for your army to have.

[Saint Vierzehn]

Or drop an AOE spell on them, shoot one or two with arrows, then charge in and finish two or three off.

 

 

All that will put a few valkyries down tough, sure enough. Assuming, of course, that I don't bother taking one of those non-unique, tough mages with counterspells that the mountain list sports. I've been debating whether a pair of dwarf mages are a better buy for the list than a merc contingent of tough bowsisters. Hard call, that one.

 

But after you've charged and knocked a couple of models down tough, I"ll get to respond with 15 other warmaster healers and Skadi. That's more than enough to pull the stunned ones out of combat, spank your heinous djabouti, and hand out enough patch-up healing to put the few stunned models I've got back on their feet.

 

I've been through that routine many, many times with my Crusaders, who aren't nearly as efficient about it as the mountain valkyries.

 

Objectively speaking, there's just not any way to consider the mountain sublist properly playbalanced.

 

-StV.

[rgtriplec]

Or drop an AOE spell on them, shoot one or two with arrows, then charge in and finish two or three off.

 

 

All that will put a few valkyries down tough, sure enough. Assuming, of course, that I don't bother taking one of those non-unique, tough mages with counterspells that the mountain list sports. I've been debating whether a pair of dwarf mages are a better buy for the list than a merc contingent of tough bowsisters. Hard call, that one.

 

But after you've charged and knocked a couple of models down tough, I"ll get to respond with 15 other warmaster healers and Skadi. That's more than enough to pull the stunned ones out of combat, spank your heinous djabouti, and hand out enough patch-up healing to put the few stunned models I've got back on their feet.

 

I've been through that routine many, many times with my Crusaders, who aren't nearly as efficient about it as the mountain valkyries.

 

Objectively speaking, there's just not any way to consider the mountain sublist properly playbalanced.

 

-StV.

 

Your idea may work against certain builds, sometimes, but would easily be countered in numerous ways. As Jim said Mages and Clerics with range would do it. I guess if you were in a tournament with scenerios where you were protecting something your tactic would be good. But it would work once in a home group then everyone would counterbuild.

 

If it were a home game and I were facing you I'd play default Reven, which is my second most played army after dwarfs.

 

Urga, Beastman Sergeant

Bull Orc Fighter 3

Orc Spearman 2

Ombur, Bull Orc Cleric

Beastman Woodcutter 2

 

Urga, Beastman Sergeant

Bull Orc Hunter 3

Orc Spearman 2

Ombur, Bull Orc Cleric

 

 

Kak'Urg, Orc Captain 1

Gnoll Archer 5

Bull Orc Archer 5

 

 

Gakalath, Orc Sergeant

Beastman Woodcutter 3

Orc Spearman 2

 

Totem + Amulet

 

88 points for Blessing, Slow, Cure 1, Aspect and Warcry for the Omburs.

 

 

Instead of fielding troops with trolls, bugbears and berserkers, the three Reven Warmasters. I would field Bull Orks, Hunters, Spearmen, Beastmen which would save me enough points to get more archers. The archers would be hitting from turn one because the gnolls move 7 and have ranger. On average the archers would be getting 5 to 8 wounds per round. Meanwhile I just position myself however I want because I have no fear that you'll ever attack. An Aspect Woodcutter, Hunter or Fighter hits twice at nine, ten with a spear, 11 with the totem. A build like this that didn't need warmasters and could waste crazy points on range and clerics would tear through a valkyrie list. You may be healing but so am I, and I'm getting 2 or possibly 3 tough checks so 20%-33% of my guys are getting back up from Tough.

 

Your list would be even easier to counter with a Dwarf bear list that had Ursula, the pig, bears and dire bears all in seperate troops. The Crusaders have Damon, Daniel, Lion Lancers and the flying horse guy. So with either army I could easily field 5 or 6 troops with shock... then where is your "Warmaster tactic"?

 

As I said before, the list I played was designed for a goblin horde, and could be countered numerous ways. If I were building a tournament list where I didn't know the opponent or scenario, it would have Valkyries, Skadi, Ursula, Bears, Daughters, Forgemaidens, Kara and monsters. So I could have a little something for anyone I faced.

 

Also if you take a pair of tricked out margara's and/or bowsisters then you'll not only not being playing the list you say is broken, but you'll be losing at least 5 Valkyrie. Margara is too expensive to not give her the big damage causing spells. By losing 5, your I'll hold my ground idea becomes even harder with fewer Valkyrie, it also makes it much harder to heal because everyone will probably be swarmed and needed in the fight. Not that it wouldn't be a good list, but its not the list your arguing against.

[Qwyksilver]

[MOD]

Enough. If you can't keep your conversations civil on this board, and stop attacking each other, find another place that will allow you to act that way. Because it isn't here.

 

This behavior is not acceptible on these boards. While people may have valid points and open discussion of potential issues is always welcome, the insulting tone and attitude and attacking posters will not be accepted. In addition, it just takes away from any valid points you may be trying to make.

 

If this continues, I will have no problem removing more posts than I already have.

[/MOD]

Edited May 19, 2008 by Qwyksilver

[rgtriplec]

Well, if you come to Origins or GenCon we can play a game. I usually go to one or the other, but plan to go to both this year. I don't usually do Warlord stuff there but this year I want to play in the tournaments.

 

So you think I should allow my opponent to use a broken list, while holding back myself?

 

No, but I think you should play the list you are planning before you make a judgement. Personally, I don't want a broken sublist. I don't think it is. If it is people who have actually played it will complain and it'll get revised. Since you think it is broken, you should play it, every game, win every tournament, and refuse to play anything else to show Gus and Reaper that they were wrong to listen to me and make the Valkyries Healers. You'd be helping the game.

 

I had a list with Skadi, Valkyrie, Ursula and the bears, forgemaidens and daughters that I was going to play in a tournament next month. But I'll take an all Valkyrie list, with the sisters. If it is broken and I wax everyone I'll be the first to admit it. I may even take it to origins if the results are mixed.

[wal enalut]

Although I have found the synergistic effects of Toch of the goddes and the SA that allows Adepts in multiple troops to be quite overpowering. When playtestign aginst a few BL members at the FLGS, I found 4 troops led by a pimped out Skaldi with a mixed group of Sheildmadens and Valkeryis and then seperate squads fo valkeries and Shieldmadens was absloutely bruatl to face with Meele--I found that list coul not counter range and magic attackes well.

 

Changing topics--Although I started with Dwarves with the standard Bears and Shieldmaidens list, lately I have really seen teh effectiveness of Piercers. We have been playign a descalation league (started with 2000 points, then 1500, then 1250, then 1000 then the last to at 750) And, especially at teh lower games I ahve foudn teh piercers to be absolutely brutal. Passible armored for archers, but with an exta dmage track it seems, good to hit bouns and the brutal critical shot, I have found that they can tear apart most lists--especially if they are backed up by a squad of meele road blocks--eiother shieldmaidens for obvious reasons or forgemaidens for fearless (shooting into meele).

 

I have also and additionally found that Snoori (equiped with GM Armor and GM Ranged Weapon for and additioanl 80 points) is well worth it--the plus 10 to hit on a 2 poit critical shot with a poison toek is well worth the 186 poitns for the DV 13 model.

 

Last night I wailed on a bugbear force of Bullies, Archers and a champion in a 750 point game by killing all enemy without losing a model (thanks to a passed tough check on a piercer). My force:

 

I don't rem,bner all the exact point breakdowns but I know it came to 749

 

King Thorgam (SP)--GMA; GMW--178

2 Shieldmadens--140

1 Halbradier--34?

 

Snoori--186

 

Tohil--60?

3X Piercers--171

 

3 Troops, 2 spies for actavation cards.

 

I have used it (or a slightly larger force) effectivley for 3 weeks now using a variety of tactics--usually concentratign on droping large individual threats (especially solos to remove the activation card) but have also done quite well hitting multipel models for the 2 points on their way in and then taking whatever pot shots I can once meele is engaged.

 

I have foudn that dwarves, especially shieldmaidens can pass disciplien checks often enough to stomach shooting into meele.

[rgtriplec]

I have trouble playing dwarf list at 750, because the core models are so expensive it never leaves room for things like halberds/Trencher. I might play at the Krystal Keep next Monday is that your FLGS?