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Qwyksilver

Reven

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Ouch, it looks fairly effective with that many first strikers. Likely the build will be close to unbalancing and difficult to beat without specifically building to fight against it.

 

Archers and spells will be your real issue, and when you hit you need to make sure you hit hard enough to kill the enemy outright so you are free to the models next turn unbased and able to use first strike again. Wondering if you might run into problems facing other mob type armies as well, as a high number of enemy models might mean you won't get to use first strike quite as often given that your opponent will have more opportunity to base you first.

 

Now that is an army I'd love to take a high Mage count or high # of Banshees against, what a bloodbath that would be for both sides, although I'd place the game well in the Reven's favor more than likely there would be a certain satisfaction in moving down 20 or 30 Orcs with spells before they killed me off :) Wouldn't be too tough to get 10+ Mages in 1500 points, Aysa + 6 Malek's and 4 Railors is doable. The idea of tossing 4 Ice Shards, 6 Fireballs and a Firestorm at a Horde of incoming Orcs is pretty dreamy.

 

Anyway, some nice builds popping up in this thread for sure.

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Yeah, I saw the multi mage Banshee list you posted. My list is very much a one trick list, but will be haed for many to counter.

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It will be tough indeed, no argument, I suppose the easiest way to counter it would be to take a Nagendra list, and suddenly your entire battleplan goes up in smoke as your two track models go down to single strikes via Poison. Still, not many people out there using the Snakemen sub-faction me thinks.

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OK - so I finally figured out that I should buy the kinds of troops that appeal to me so I have the chance to play around with my army instead of trying to build one or two and just buy those models. I'm a little dense at times.

 

So, here's my current list of have/buy. Please review and let me know if I'm missing out on anything tasty.

 

name			modeltype	productcode	Qty	Desired	Purchase
Bugbear Warrior		Adept		DHL 2818			0
Bull Orc Archer		Adept		14424		5	5
Bull Orc Berzerker	Adept		14404		2	2
Bull Orc Fighter	Adept		14347		7	7	0
Bull Orc Hunter		Adept		14426		2	2
Gnoll Archer		Adept		DHL 3190			0
Goblin Beastrider	Adept		14189			0
Goblin Ranger		Adept		14394			0
Harpy			Adept		14216		3	3
Ogre Warrior		Adept		14038		2	2
Dantral, Half-Orc Cptn	Captain		14270			0
Gronk Spliteye, Bugbear Captain		DHL 3101			0
Gurm, Ogre Captain	Captain		14054			0
Kak'Urg, Orc Captain	Captain		14194			0
Narg, Bull Orc Captain	Captain		14049		1	1
Nor'Okk, Ettin		Captain		DHL 3137			0
Gonda, Goblin Cleric	Cleric		14206			0
Ombur, Bull Orc Cleric	Cleric		14079		1	1	0
Beastman Woodcutter	Grunt		14361		3	6	3
Goblin Skeeter		Grunt		14373			0
Goblin Warrior		Grunt		14429			
Orc Spearman		Grunt		14369			0
Orc Warrior		Grunt		14384			0
Bloodmane, Gnoll Champ	Hero		DHL 3214			0
Gaaguk, Bull Orc Hero	Hero		14201			0
Korgug, Bugbear Bully	Hero		DHL 3245			0
Traeg, Beastman Hero	Hero		14207			0
Lunk, Goblin Mage	Mage		14123			0
Yagun Oog, Ogre Mage	Mage		14132		1	1
Hill Giant		Monster		14205			0
Nhoolyan, Plains Hunter	Monster		14221		1	1
Gankorak, Orc Rogue	Rogue		14198		1	1
Skralla, Goblin Rogue	Rogue		14178			0
Gakalath, Orc Sergeant	Sergeant	14197		1	1
Kharg, Bull Orc 	Sergeant	Sergeant	14061		1	1
Neek, Goblin		Sergeant	14095			0
Ogg, Beastrider		Sergeant	14210			0
Urga, Beastman Sergeant	Sergeant	14118		1	2	1
Greka, Orc Shaman	Solitaire	14196				0
Lurgh, Half-Orc Assass	Solitaire	14043		1	1	0
Gronkelfibbets & Mazak	Warlord		14396			0
Kiakara, Orc Warlord	Warlord		14195			0
Varaug, BullOrc Warlord	Warlord		14063		1	1	0

 

And here's my Tomukh sub-faction out of those:

 

name			modeltype	productcode	Quantity
Bull Orc Archer		Adept		14424		5
Bull Orc Berzerker	Adept		14404		2
Bull Orc Fighter	Adept		14347		7
Bull Orc Hunter		Adept		14426		2
Ogre Warrior		Adept		14038		2
Gurm, Ogre Captain	Captain		14054		0
Narg, Bull Orc Captain	Captain		14049		1
Ombur, Bull Orc Cleric	Cleric		14079		1
Beastman Woodcutter	Grunt		14361		6
Gaaguk, Bull Orc Hero	Hero		14201		0
Traeg, Beastman Hero	Hero		14207		0
Yagun Oog, Ogre Mage	Mage		14132		1
Nhoolyan, Plains Hunter	Monster		14221		1
Kharg, Bull Orc Sgt	Sergeant	14061		1
Urga, Beastman Sergeant	Sergeant	14118		2
Lurgh, Half-Orc Assass	Solitaire	14043		1
Varaug, BullOrc Warlord	Warlord		14063		1

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Reven is just so big now it's hard to say what to get because there are so many good models.

 

I was surprised with all the beastmen and Urga there was no Traeg on your list. Traeg is an excellent buy, compare him to a Bull Berserker. Greka is very useful, especially being both a Cleric and Mage. I think you need Kiakara, and a couple Gondas for your Reven, and a couple more Omburs for your Bull lists. With Blessing, Aspect and Warcry a Reven build can really be tough with a bunch of clerics and they are all cheap spells. Lesser Orc Spearmen are a pretty good model , if you take a totem they First Strike at 6, which is nice for 18 points.

 

Anything with Tough got a boost with the new Default faction ability.

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I've played against goblins three times this weekend. Twice were against a veteran player and BL, and once against a college student I demoed the game to at the hotel I was at.

 

I'm really at a loss as to how they can win. I played the old goblins, when all grunts had one track and it was a tough little army. But in the new multi-track world, I can't say I ever see them played much, and when they do they get stomped. They can be very good for scenario play, but no better than anyone else.

 

In the games with the BL we were running scenerios. One game was an easy beat down of the goblins, the other came down to the last tough roll, which I got but had it been a kill 'em all it would have been a slaughter of the goblins.

 

In the game with the new player, he insisted on being goblins. So I gave him 1500 points to my 1150. Even then it was a complete slaughter.

 

Hill giants and Riders can hold there own, Rangers do fairly well with a totem. Harpies aren't much help for 40 points. Goblin magic is no better or worse than most, but the two ranges models are little more than a joke. The rest are paper.

 

I was using pretty much nothing but Valkyries, and they pretty much would take down two or three every attack and defence. Seldom did they accumulate much damage from the horde itself. Only the magic, giant and Riders gave me any trouble, but even then it was too little too late.

 

The 5 support rule was nearly useless, as I'm not going to place a single model in a position to be based by five. Generally they could get the usual three.

 

I think the goblin FAs are little help. They command stuff does nothing, because without it they would just be given a couple leader models. Mob mentality is cool but it isn't an ability that will make a huge difference most of the time. The +5 support, IMO actually hurts them. If they had the default 3 and a spearman with FS like everyone else, they'd be much better served. It's just too hard to get 5 models on a 1" base.

 

I've always wondered why the River Trolls are bounced back and forth between Grand and Bulls, when neither needs them, and in general fantasy fluff they fit better with goblins. In addition to the trolls a spearman is needed.

 

If trolls and Spearmen are not an option.

 

The addition of the DHL Goblin Wolves and Hobgoblins to the Goblin clans would help. Since the clans are adepts why not give them adept stats, instead of stats that are worse than the worst grunts in the game. I'd like to see all the SAs stripped off of the Line Sashers and give them a Mav 8. Lower the flingers Rng to 12 and up their Rav to 4 like Dingo Appledimple.

 

Since pretty much all the FAs are fluff driven and are not that usefull, why not give them something like Smite(Good)1, Runner/2 and Leap.

 

That would make them the fastest models in the game with moves of 7 and 8, and with leap. So they could truly engulf an enemy, flank faster and be able to jump over the line line to maximize their +5, and get the behind bonus. Although in most instances they are not going to get the behind bonus, due to face changes. You could still leap them into the broken spots in the line to take away your opponents support bonuses and possibly lock them in on three sides for the next round.

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I think it largely depends on a few issues:

 

1) Who the Goblins are fighting, if their opponent has large numbers of Warmasters on the board they are at a real disadvantage.

 

2) Army construction; truthfully if you are going to take Goblins then you need to take many many goblins, you can't get away with taking only a few goblins. I would guess large mobs with a mix of 1/3 Skeeters to 2/3 Warriors, and a Lunk seem like the way to go for me. NEarly everything else would get left behind (No Giants, No Riders, Few Fancy Troop Types).

 

3) They likely take a really experienced player to pull off. Do remember that Pre-RC07 Goblins got slaughtered left right and center in my experience as well.

 

Whether it would be effective or not I would be looking at something like this:

 

1500 points:

 

Troop 1 (385)

Neek -24

+LMW -10

Lunk -25

+Ice Shards -8

+Scare -8

13xGoblin Warriors-156

7xGoblin Skeeters -154

 

Troop 2 (375)

Neek -24

Lunk -25

+Ice Shards -8

+Scare -8

13xGoblin Warriors-156

7xGoblin Skeeters -154

 

Troop 3 (305)

Neek -24

Lunk -25

+Ice Shards -8

+Scare -8

13xGoblin Warriors-156

7xGoblin Flingers -84

 

Troop 4 (284)

Lunk -25

+Ice Shards -8

+Scare -8

7xGoblin Rangers -133

5xGoblin Skeeters -110

 

Equipment:

Totem 150

 

#Models: 79, #Cards: 4, # Points: 1499

 

Anyway, it would be the first thing I tried if I was going to sue Gobbos, and I would play around from there.

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I think any army with high DV or Warmaster, great archers etceteras would make short work of a pure goblin force. And just about any other would probably still beat them. The only thing that keeps them in a game is magic, giants and riders, everything else is just sacrifice. On a 4' table even a 25 model force can position itself in a way that the goblins can never swarm. I'd be willing to bet a unit of 500 points of Dwarfs waxes 1000 points of goblins 4 out of 5 times.

 

If you remember the old goblins were much, much better. Compare the old stats, and remember everyone is one track. I had just started playing goblins when they changed, so I remember the difference well.

 

Bull Fighter was MA1, Mav3, Dv10

Hunter MA2, Mav2, Dv9

Woodcutters MA1, Mav2, Dv9

 

Goblin MA1, Mav 0, Dv 7

Shortfangs MA1, Mav 2, Dv7

Rangers MA2, Mav 1, Dv7

Wormbait MA2, Mav 1 Dv 6 6

 

It was much easier to be competitive when your Mav and MA and Dv were fairly equivilent.

 

Now most every model in the game not only outclasses goblins in terms of Stats, but they also have 2-5 times as many tracks. Where a couple goblins used to be able to easily drop a Templar or Dwarf Warrior, now you sacrifice half a dozen to get a single model, and we're not talking about Shieldmaidens, Ragers and Tomb Guards. We're talking about a regular dwarf warrior.

 

I like the fact that goblins are 1 track and fairly weak, but they need better FA's, at least one beefy adept, and spearmen. As I mentioned earlier Runner/2 and Leap would make them a more competitive company.

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Your opinion of course. They are totally sucky I agree, but not nearly as bad as the picture you paint.

 

Giants are terrible, possibly one of the least cost effective units in the game, so taking two of them is a huge waste (I can get 25 goblins for the cost of each). Taking Gronkelfibbets is likewise wasteful, as given his size he simply has a giant target painted on him due to the goblins inability to protect him.

 

Due keep in mind Goblins are DV 9, DV 10 against ranged attacks they might go down hard, but their are plenty of other models in the game that are worse off.

 

You point out how much better Gobbos were previously, but you fail to point out how much cheaper Gobbos are now comparatively.

 

I would support the idea of a Spearmen with Reach, but would fight tooth and nail to make sure they didn't get a first striker that could easily be abused, there are enough of those in the game already.

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Your opinion of course. They are totally sucky I agree, but not nearly as bad as the picture you paint.

 

Giants are terrible, possibly one of the least cost effective units in the game, so taking two of them is a huge waste (I can get 25 goblins for the cost of each). Taking Gronkelfibbets is likewise wasteful, as given his size he simply has a giant target painted on him due to the goblins inability to protect him.

 

Due keep in mind Goblins are DV 9, DV 10 against ranged attacks they might go down hard, but their are plenty of other models in the game that are worse off.

 

You point out how much better Gobbos were previously, but you fail to point out how much cheaper Gobbos are now comparatively.

 

I would support the idea of a Spearmen with Reach, but would fight tooth and nail to make sure they didn't get a first striker that could easily be abused, there are enough of those in the game already.

 

I can tell you from playing three games Saturday against 2 giants. They were the only thing that kept me from totally clearing the board without losing a model. My Valkyries killed every goblin that based them usually sending 3 to their deaths at a time, and with defensive strikes it was usually a lot more. A giant supported by multiple gondas is dishing out 4, 8, even 12 or more wounds a round depending on how many units attack it. An Aspect giant can outright kill not wound but kill 2 or 3 models at a time with Frenzy. Considering it works with Warmaster and Aspect stacks, Giants are killing way more than twenty five goblins and they aren't dying in the process.

 

The Warlord is equally useful, with a greater familiar and two big spells, he can dish out numerous wounds, before melee. Then he's just a beast. In a unit of 16 goblins he's not getting swarmed, with that many helpers you'd be lucky to get two or three models on him. I agree big models are targets, but one that in a troop of 17 its pretty easy to guard the flanks.

 

The only standard based goblins with a Dv9 or Dv10 even with deflect are the Warriors. Rangers, Skeeters, Flingers, Line Smashers and Wormbait are all 8 and lower. Even the beefy unit, Beastriders are only 10.

 

Goblins aren't comparatively cheaper now, maybe slightly but not enough to matter. There is no need to discuss archers because all archers are much cheaper now than in the first edition. So, strictly sticking to melee the only grunts are Warriors and Beastriders. Beastriders are 6 points more and Warriors are 3 less than before. Rangers are 6 points less and Short Fangs are equal to Line Smashers. Granted Wormbait are much cheaper, but that is reflective of no models having burrow and it being overpriced in the old rules. The Giant is about the same, and Harpies are 10 points cheaper which reflects how flyers are cheaper, as Crypt Bats dropped 18 points. The two leaders are considerably cheaper, but you never need leaders in a goblin force, so there cost is moot. The spellcasters are 2 points more. The goblins didn't recieve the drastic points changes other factions did with the 2007 rules. They are pretty much the same as they always were. So, overall the goblins didn't change that much. If you wanted you could still pack 100 goblins in a 1500 point build, before the change.

 

A typical list for me would be:

 

Totem - 150

 

Troop 1

Giant 255/228

 

Troop 2-6

Goblin Leader 15/12

Gonda 27/29

8 goblins 120/90

Total 810/655

 

7 Beastriders 294/336

 

1509/1369 = The old list is 140 points more, which by dropping 2 gondas, 2 riders and 2 warriors they even out. 58 models to 52.

 

So is +6 models a fair trade off, when you consider the old goblins had the same number of tracks as every other soldier in the game?

 

I played the old goblins a few times, but was very aware of how they matched up because I played a lot of Reven, and used them in most builds. There is no comparison in the old and new.

 

If players were going to abuse goblins with FS, they would already be doing it with Ork spearmen, which are as cheap as a Ranger.

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My point exactly, if the Reven already have an 18 point first striker, they don't need another one.

 

They could be a goblin clan grunt.

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Would you be willing to lose the +5 melee support cap in order to get a Reach model?

What would you give Goblins in return as a Faction SA to make up for the loss of the Melee Support boost?

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Would you be willing to lose the +5 melee support cap in order to get a Reach model?

What would you give Goblins in return as a Faction SA to make up for the loss of the Melee Support boost?

 

The melee support boost is no boost, it's a deficit. If the goblins had a spearmen, they'd have a +6 support, and it's easier to get +3 support and +3 reach on a standard based model than trying to get five. Not once in three games did I ever allow myself to be in a position to be based by five goblins. I doubt many other players ever let anything but a large or giant solo get based by five models.

 

There seems to be such a fear of goblins getting a spear. If five goblins and three spears(3+3+5) base a hill giant they could get 5 wounds, but all five will die. If three Valkyrie base a giant with three spears, the giant will kill one and wound another, but they will have the same Mav as the goblins(3+3+5). The difference is the Maidens have the ability to give 9 wounds and with the higher dv recieve less in return. Even something like Ork warrior would fair just as well as +5+3 goblins, they may have 2 less MAs but they have +2 Mav and +1 dv, and there would still be an ork standing even if the giant hit everytime. So, over a couple rounds they'd even out.

 

I really fail to see how the +5+3 bonuses would be in the least unbalancing.

 

I'm not sure if the goblin FAs were purely devised from a fluff standpoint, without thinking that they really weren't giving the sublist much of a boost. I'd get rid of all the command stuff, it just makes the goblin FA look big when in fact it is probably the weakest in the game. Although goblin horde is great, and Mob Mentality is useful at times it is actually very little, even when compared to the Default list which originally had Steppe Born and Trolls, but now also has Tenacious.

 

I'd like to see the goblins get the old SA Runner/2, Leap and Smite(Good)1. Give them a non-unique captain with Mob/9, give Neek an Elite slot, a Spearman, Goblin Wolves and Hobgoblins.

 

 

Noghra (Goblin) Sublist Facton Special Abilities

 

Evil Intent

All models in an all Nohgra Fighting Company gain Smite(Good)1

 

Goblin Horde

All Leader Models without Mob/# gain Mob/5. Leader models with Mob may add 5 to their existing

Mob capacity. All models gain the Runner/2 SA and the Leap SA. All Grunt Models gain the Mob SA. Additionally, Support Bonuses are capped at +5 instead of +3.

 

Mob Mentality

Whenever a Model with the Mob SA must make a DIS check for making B2B contact with an enemy

Model, it receives +1 to this roll for every friendly Model that is also in B2B contact with the target

Model, and also a +1 bonus to this check for every friendly Model making a charge action against the

same target Model this Action Phase.

 

No Command Structure

An all Goblin list ignores the “Chain of Command” rules, and therefore does not require Captains or a

Warlord (even for large games that normally require a Warlord).

 

You be Leader, no YOU be Leader

Any Soldier Model may become a Leader and gain Troop Capacity “4-8/0” when leading a Troop with

at least 3 other Models that also use its own original Data Card. The Leader Goblin Model should be

marked in some way to distinguish it from the other Goblins. The Leader model cannot take equipment

restricted to Leader models.

 

Hey! We Come Too!

All Leader Models (including Soldiers that are now made Leaders) gain “/1” to their Troop value, thus

allowing them to take one Elite Model. Leader Models that could already take Elites gain no further

benefit.

 

Goblin Clans

The following models can be fielded only in a Noghra Sublist:

Goblin Worm Bait, Adept

Goblin Line Smashers, Adept

Goblin Flingers, Adept

Goblin Wolves

Hobgoblin Warriors

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I like the EVIL INTENT, rgtriplec! And I don't think that adding Goblin list specific spearmen would be all that bad either.

 

Not sure about some of the rest.

1) I like the no cmd structure as an interesting spin on this faction

2) U B Leader - allows you to bring 2 grunts instead of 1 Neek - overall, IMHO in this list, more effective

3) We come 2 - allows you to bring a Lunk with every troop - sure he is only a so-so Mage, but gives you a Bolt every turn and likely to hit more than other goblin ranged guys.

 

Instead of bringing back Runner SA, maybe have Mob Mentality double charge bonus (including Imp. Charge)

 

I think that the quickest most balanced fix would be to give 'MOB' troops a +1 MA for the same point cost in a Goblin only list. This would give the Goblin Swarm some real bite. They only have 1 real attack anyway, they should make it count.

 

Is anyone else wondering why, with the model count on the REVEN list, the Goblins didn't get split off into another faction like the BSG?

 

Cheers,

Brian

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