I know not all gamers are like this, are we?

[Aegrist13]

I was on the Wotc official D&D forum trying to get a look at what others were saying about 4e. They were crazy, nigh on fanatically upset about every aspect of the new edition that they had read or heard about, rumor or otherwise. I know that I'm not that bad. I've decided that if I dont like 4e, I'm just going to play Pathfinder and 3.5v. I just can't believe how some people act, even if it is in a post.

[Rastl]

Nah, gamers aren't iconoclastic or zealots. No way.

 

I think a lot of the anger you're seeing is based on the decision to make the new version completely incompatible with the old version. And that there really hasn't been a lot of time between 3.5 and 4.0 coming out. These two things together scream "Spend more money" to people.

 

Personally, I'm not seeing any reason to move to 4.0 at this time. I am picking up a lot of the hardcover 3.5 books at the half price book store so I'm not complaining, mind you.

 

But from what I've heard, based on playtesters and demo events, is that this is more WOW/online style stuff than the RPG we're used to. Having every character have a variety of things they can do every encounter (wizards never really run out of spells, etc.) ruins the planning and chance parts of the game to me. What's the downside of using your big spells if you know you're always going to have more of them?

 

Then again, I don't like playing high level games for the same reason. When your base skill bonus is over 30 what's the point of rolling?

 

Back on topic.

 

I think that if WotC had called this anything but D&D it would be one of the most widely anticipated releases out there. But they've wiped all the old D&D off the map and replaced it with this. And that's what seems to be causing all the problems for people.

[Ranzadule]

My solution was to get Warlords of the accordlands Master Codecies for all of my players and to get them dirt cheap. I also have 3 copies of the Atlas of the Accordlands, 2 copies of monsters and Lairs and 2 campaign books. I am running my own 3.0/3.5 version campaign in that world and not giving a fig about the dumbed down streamlined 4.0 silliness.

[Aegrist13]

Well, I've already pre-ordered the core books, but I'm still buying all the 3.5 books I can find.

[Joe Kutz]

I still never saw the need to break from the original THAC0 format that worked for 25 years or so.

 

$WoTC$ has been entirely looking to make money, and they are making the game even more computer friendly in order to cash in on software licensing even more. When everything has a number assigned to it, an imbecile can program for it - and more importantly they can have tournaments (look for D&D 4.0 tournaments to be popping up soon after the release...always good to promote fanboydom).

 

I have the strange feeling in the back of my head that the D&D license will be for sale sometime in the next 2-3 years. Most likely in a manner similar to how FFG picked up Dark Heresy. Hasbro will keep it for the external licensing...but WoTC will not be involved.

[SaintRigger]

I still never saw the need to break from the original THAC0 format that worked for 25 years or so.

 

AMEN!

[tabascojunkie]

Edited.

[tabascojunkie]

But from what I've heard, based on playtesters and demo events, is that this is more WOW/online style stuff than the RPG we're used to.

 

 

This is kind of OT, but I wonder if HERO Games might be doing the same kind of thing with their rules system. Several months ago they sold the rights to the Champions intellectual property to the same computer game company that made City of Heroes and City of Villains, with the intent of making a Champions MMORPG. Champions is the super-hero game that they started out with in the early 80s that has since become the "any genre you can think of" HERO System.

 

Not long at all after that they announced plans for a sixth edition of the rules. The Fifth Edition Revised was only a couple of years old with plenty of life and use left in it. And they too had said many times that there were no plans for a sixth edition any time soon, not for several years. And according to what Steve Long has said it will be a substantial re-write of the rules with apparently no sacred cows. So it will most likely not be very compatible with the previous editions. When he first came along as a freelancer hired to write the fifth edition he was told by the powers that be what he could change and what he couldn't. Now that he owns the company he can change whatever he wants.

 

Also, any future Champions products HERO releases will have to follow the continuity that is developed in the online game.

 

The stated reason behind selling Champions to them was to try to attract more people RPGs, theirs in particular of course. And you have to wonder, if they're trying to attract players that are used to computer games, what do you think the new rule system might be like? More like a video game?

 

Hmm, have to wonder.

[kristof65]

I was on the Wotc official D&D forum trying to get a look at what others were saying about 4e. They were crazy, nigh on fanatically upset about every aspect of the new edition that they had read or heard about, rumor or otherwise.

The same thing is going on at various sites regarding the new edition of Warhammer 40k, due out in July. It's a gamer thing - some of them just get a little to hot under the collar with no real evidence. The crowd around here is a little more level headed, but you could probably get a similar reaction out of a few of us if you were to start a credible sounding rumour about Warlord shortly before the release of RC09.

 

behind selling Champions to them was to try to attract more people RPGs, theirs in particular of course. And you have to wonder, if they're trying to attract players that are used to computer games, what do you think the new rule system might be like? More like a video game?

Given that the MMPORPGs have been vying for the same customer base as traditional RPGs lately, it kind of seems like a natural progression. But I wonder if it's the right way to go? I've never found online games as satisfying as a face to face RPG, surely I'm not the only one who feels that way. I've personally noticed that the friends of mine who are heaviest into the online games don't have that long of an attention span. They'll move from game to game, and when they do play pen & paper roleplaying games, they're often the first to abandon a campaign for something "more interesting."

 

I also wonder if the economy is going to have an effect here shortly. If we slide into a recession, how many people are going to give up their subscriptions to online services such as WoW and CoH/V, and turn back to traditional RPGs as cheap entertainment? This could be completely the wrong time for WotC to try and supplement the game with an online subscription portion. But I guess we shall see - if it's successful for WotC, I wouldn't be surprised to see some other publishers move that way as well.

[Kheprera]

I don't think the Champions rules system will move alongside the MMO simply because the CO franchise only bought rights to use the Intellectual Property, not the rules system.

 

And Champions went through a major overhaul with 4th Edition. Fifth edition was more or less a combination of the various splat books (Dark Champions, et. al.) into one cohesive format. As I recall, 4th edition came out in the late 80's, very early 90's (I'm thinking around 1987 or 88, though) and the game didn't get any major revisions until 5th edition (and it needed them, badly). Fifth ed. was rushed, thus the revised was needed because there were some major loopholes and things that needed fixing. Apparently Sixth edition is going to be even more major than 4th, but I'm looking forward to it. Mind you, this is coming from a long time Champions fanatic and my system of choice for GMing. There is going to be some stuff included to fit in with the MMO, but remember that the population of the gaming culture is in flux. The table-top RPGs are now needing to compete for the people who play MMOs and draw that userbase into the fold. I know countless numbers of Champions players who play City of Heroes/Villains because you finally get to see and play and move your character, instead of just imagining it in your head.

[Reaperbryan]

Back on topic:

As an Employee of the Game/Hobby industry for a substantial part of my adult life, I can say without a doubt that gamers are like that, yes. The reactions and firestorms we got over the initial announcement of our first Pre-Painted Plastic Models, both in public and privately, the reactions on other forums I have visited etc. were nothing short of predictions of apocalypse. People Suggested that within a year we'd stop making metal altogether and would become a 100% plastic house like other companies have done, etc. There was both excitement and panic - and I mean panic. We were traitors to the hobby, we were saviors of the gamers who hated random, we were opportunists who were jumping ship when the other companies were doing the same thing, we were money-grubbing for a share of WotC's pie, we were the only people that really understood what so-and-so wanted out of a model, you name it.

 

Add to this the hullabaloo over the launch of Chronoscope - and that one wasn't as dire, but predictions and accusations abounded. Then the firestorms we get over RotD, Warlord and CAV...

 

Yes, gamers take their hobby very seriously, and fear change. Changes to the game they love are troubling to them. I guess you can compare it to changing cast members on TV shows that you watch - when Duchovny left X-Files, it killed the show. And for some, When THAC0 left D&D, it killed the game. For others, the changes made to 4e will have killed it, since for some D&D *is* 3e (i.e. it's the only version they ever tried). And there'll be a crop of gamers that adopt 4e and for them, that's D&D. And the purists will moan about how in "real D&D" Elf is a class, and there is no "A" in front of it, etc. etc.

 

Are all gamers like this? not really. There's some cows that are sacred to anyone, I suppose. For some, the changes to 4e are too much to bear. For others, they're exiciting, for what I suspect is an overwhelmingly large majority, They'll look through it, and if they like what they see, they'll pick it up, put it on the bookshelf they have with the other 200 gaming books that cover some 30 or so companies and rules-sets, and it'll get played or it won't. I know that's me. I have books for games I have yet to play, and I'm not moaning about them, or crying that they are being changed. I hope that each revision will intorduce one more thing that'll be nice to add to my games at home, I can house-rule in this feature of that game, and that feature of this game....

[Qwyksilver]

Are all gamers like this? not really. There's some cows that are sacred to anyone, I suppose.

 

And for some, that sacred cow tastes best when it's cooked for hours over low heat and served with barbecue and a cold beer

[tabascojunkie]

Are all gamers like this? not really. There's some cows that are sacred to anyone, I suppose.

 

And for some, that sacred cow tastes best when it's cooked for hours over low heat and served with barbecue and a cold beer

 

Uh-huh.

[Doug Sundseth]

The comment that baffles me the most is the one that takes the form, "They're just out for more of our money!" (There are usually more exclamation points, of course.)

 

Game companies are businesses. That means that they are providing product that they hope will sell for more than what it takes to make it (including insurance, rent, heat, accounting, whatever). So, yes, they're out for your money, just like your favorite fiction author, or the star baseball player on your favorite team, or the company that sold you your last car, or the local grocery store.

 

Important tip: That's a good thing.

 

Companies that don't make money close and their employees lose their jobs. And they stop producing all those things that they used to produce for some reason other than to get more of your money. (Whatever those things might be.)

 

When the bete noir (add diacritical marks to taste) game company of the month reorganizes under Section 501 ( c ), let me know. Then I'll be interested in hearing about how, "They're just out for more of our money!"

 

FWIW, none of the above should be taken to indicate my undying support for 4th Ed. The excerpts I've seen so far have made it unlikely that I'll buy into the new system in the short term.

 

Oh, and yes, it's not just, or even mainly, D&D gamers that are like that.

 

[Kheprera]

A new thing coming to City of Heroes is the ability to write and populate your own missions and storylines (as near as I can tell). This is really going to draw a lot of people into the game because now a person can GM another group and send them on missions and it's going to give a boost to the roleplaying base. If Champions Online allows this as well (which it online community and away from the tabletop. To keep the players throwing dice, the companies are going to have to compete and give the player base something to keep their interest. If that means combining it to work online in a way where we can all sit at home and run our games, imagine what this can do for the gaming community. Instead of PBEM or PBP games we can log on and see each others characters and truly interact in a more immersive way.