I know not all gamers are like this, are we?

[Aegrist13]

I'm not being elitist so much as I'm angry that "they" are making my entire mulit-hundred/thousand dollar book collection obselete. 2nd edition didnt make that much of a dent in my cash cause I was 15 at the time but now I'm older and alot more conscious of where my money goes. The cash-grab attitude or whatever is just insulting and ridiculous. hasbro is never going to understand that a RPG doesnt have to be re-worked every year or two.

[Doug Sundseth]

I think 4e would have more acceptance if the initial product pitches weren't as condescending as they were. "Your game sux, ours will be sooo much better!" isn't a good way to get me on board.

 

While I think that I probably won't like 4e, I can't really see the problem with this. It's got to work better than, "We know that our game isn't as good as what you're already playing, but you should give us a few hundred dollars anyway." You have to differentiate yourself as being better, cheaper, or new (preferably more than one, of course). Since it's WotC, "cheaper" is right out. Since it's D&D, "new" is only going to be true for a very limited value of "new". Guess what that leaves.

 

As far as GW is concerned, they are the dead horse that must be beaten whether they deserve it or not. They are the top of their game and the EEEVIL EMPIRE deserving of ridicule, in the same way that Wal-mart is deserving of ridicule, whether its fair or not.

 

I don't know that I can argue with that. BTW, that's not an endorsement of the unassailable logic of the position.

 

There's quite a bit of "gamer elitism" that floats around. I saw quite a bit of it with 3.0. Having my intelligence insulted for liking the game, or thinking THAC0 is a sucky game mechanic isn't especially appealing, or makes me want to consider those other games more. Some of this is borne from the desire to be non-mainstream, seem more discerning, and thus a bit more elitist. Has anyone else noticed this?

 

That's unpossible. It's just a fact that Space Opera (Rune Quest/Rolemaster/SenZar/GURPS ... {SenZar?}) is the best game that was ever written. That's not elitist; it's the truth.

 

Oh, and THAC0 is a corruption of the one true mechanic: a different to-hit table for each class.

 

Last minute edit: My collection of 3.5 books must be different from that of some other people. For some reason, I expect it will work just as well in two months as it does now. Sorry you bought the version that's becoming unusable.

[Reaperbryan]

I'm not being elitist so much as I'm angry that "they" are making my entire mulit-hundred/thousand dollar book collection obselete.

Last minute edit: My collection of 3.5 books must be different from that of some other people. For some reason, I expect it will work just as well in two months as it does now. Sorry you bought the version that's becoming unusable.

I was going to respond with the same thing. I am not bitter about 4e becuase I can still use my 3.x products if I feel like it.

It's not like the books become unusable. I have some old 3rd Edition GURPS and some 2ed World of Darkness stuff at home, too, that even though it's out of print and no longer supported with new product or errata, I can still use...

[kristof65]

There's quite a bit of "gamer elitism" that floats around. I saw quite a bit of it with 3.0. Having my intelligence insulted for liking the game, or thinking THAC0 is a sucky game mechanic isn't especially appealing, or makes me want to consider those other games more. Some of this is borne from the desire to be non-mainstream, seem more discerning, and thus a bit more elitist. Has anyone else noticed this?

I've noticed it to, but I'm not so sure it's pure elitism. I'm not sure what you'ld call it, but I've seen a lot of gamers who refuse to play anything but system x. Sometimes it's an obscure system, and there is an elitist or snobbish attitude, but it often goes the other way, too - IE, "Everyone plays D&D/WH40k/etc, therefore it's the only system that's worthwhile."

 

In Minis games I can see some reasoning for this - different scales, basing standards, unit sizes and model types can go a long way towards segregating gamers into different systems - people will want to play what they can find opponents for and what they have minis for. But where it doesn't make any sense is in RPGs. Most RPGs don't require anything beyond a set of dice, and that the GM have the books. I've run plenty of campaigns where one or more of the players haven't owned a single book for the game.

 

Different campaigns have different needs in the game system behind them. I can't fathom my friend Kristine running her campaign in any system other than D&D. Same with my Yrazul campaign. Yet my Iskitaan campaign leaves fould taste in my mouth when I try and run it with D&D - it fits best with WFRP. My friend Dave's campaign screams GURPS!

 

When people give me fits about RPG systems, I like to pull a little car analogy on them. I don't like Suburus - Ic an't stand them, and I will never buy one. But if a friend is offering to give me a ride across town or pick me up from the airport, I'm not going turn them down because they drive a Suburu. Same goes for a game system - if a friend invites me to play in an interesting campaign setting, I'm not going to turn them down because it's system X - as long as they understand I'll be borrowing their books from time to time...

[kristof65]

I am not bitter about 4e becuase I can still use my 3.x products if I feel like it.

It's not like the books become unusable. I have some old 3rd Edition GURPS and some 2ed World of Darkness stuff at home, too, that even though it's out of print and no longer supported with new product or errata, I can still use...

While I agree with you Bryan, the problem I've run into with this is the same thing I mention above, that Damon likened to elitism. Finding people to play the system. If you have an established game group, and your rep as a GM is good, most players will go along with what ever system because they want to play.

 

But trying to find new gamers using an old or obscure system becomes an issue. It seems like people won't join a new group unless they're comfortable with at least one of these three things - GM, Campaign or Game System.

 

I also think our culture has become predisposed towards having to have the latest and the greatest. This applies to more than just games - cel phones, TVs, cars, etc. Heck, I fell prey to it myself, having just purchased a brand new Flat Screen TV when my old one was perfectly usable.

[Dragon Snack]

And some will hold out for 2 of the 3.

 

I had a rather extensive homebrew world for D&D that I could have updated to 3.x, but some of my players insisted we play in the Forgotten Realms. I even use 2nd edition FR stuff I picked up used in my game. Thanks to the changes WotC is forcing on the FR, if I 'upgrade' to 4.0, not only would I have to ditch my 3.x stuff, I would have to ditch my 2nd edition stuff as well...

 

I have the strange feeling in the back of my head that the D&D license will be for sale sometime in the next 2-3 years.

I mused about this on my blog just recently.

• Pulling back licenses (Dragon, Dungeon, Dragonlance), check.
  
• New edition to pump up sales, check.
  
• Online content for recuring subscription fees, check.
  
• Restrictive, revocable GSL instead of the perpetual OGL, check.
  

Sure, it's not a guarentee, but it does start you thinking...

 

When WotC first took over the property, they left the game alone. Shortly there after they changed everything...

I'm pretty sure Peter Adkinson has stated that WotC bought D&D to reinvision it. They didn't do anything right away because they actually did surveys and asked the players what they wanted.

 

That was my biggest beef with 3.5 and 4.0, they seem forced on us from some designers precious house rules (with a dash of catering to a small subset of people whining about something so you can say you did it for "the fans"). The fact that some of 3.5s changes lead into the "problems" that needed "fixing" in 4.0 shouldn't be ignored either (especially the "Magic Items Christmas Tree").

 

As an aside, since I have a list, I can tell you I have 59 WotC D&D products (not including minis). 26 of them were 3.0 books. Since Complete Adventurer (released 1/05), I have 15 D&D products. Only 4 of those were bought new and another 4 of those were Dungeon Tiles (maps), so I haven't liked the direction WotC has been headed in for a while now. Of the others, 1 was won (from WotC themselves), 3 were gifts, and 3 were bought used.

[Mad Jack]

I only really consider myself a gaming elitist in that I require you to provide me with a good game system, regardless of what that game system is. I'm the same way with cars and clothes - I'd rather tear the brand label off my jeans and proudly claim they're generic than have a discussion of why something is better because it's "New and Improved Brand X"....

 

When 4th Ed. comes out, I'll read the books.... I'll form an opinion. And if I don't like it, I won't buy the books. If I do, then I will.

 

I hang out on the D&D forum alot, and I was laughing nearly hard enough to wet myself at the outcry of all the people who were talking out both cheeks of their arse about how WotC was robbing them (as though they were going to make people mail in all their 3.5 stuff before they bought 4th edition, like they were at the DMV changing their license plate), yet were also crying about how there was so much wrong with 3.5. I'm firmly convinced that a good part of the whining going on from a lot of people is simply because they have nothing else in their life to whine about at the moment, and would get equally fired up about any other topic of discussion you gave them just to be able to jump up and down and screech like a monkey...

 

I think it's significant that, despite the impending apocalypse that's surely going to befall us upon the release (from the deepest pits of Hell, of course) of 4th Edition, I'm currently involved in a thread on the D&D forums about how to convert the old 1st. Edition Castle Greyhawk adventure to 3.5...

 

It all comes down to this....The people who want to play 4th Edition will shell out the money for the books and the online crap. The people who don't feel like converting to the new system have already bought their books and will continue to play their own games their own way. If for some reason they have to change over, I'm sure as crafty veterans of the game they'll just borrow the new guy's books...

[kristof65]

It all comes down to this....The people who want to play 4th Edition will shell out the money for the books and the online crap. The people who don't feel like converting to the new system have already bought their books and will continue to play their own games their own way. If for some reason they have to change over, I'm sure as crafty veterans of the game they'll just borrow the new guy's books...

I gotta say I'm personally hoping that the resistance to 4e encourages more people around here to give different systems a chance.

[Reaperbryan]

It all comes down to this....The people who want to play 4th Edition will shell out the money for the books and the online crap. The people who don't feel like converting to the new system have already bought their books and will continue to play their own games their own way. If for some reason they have to change over, I'm sure as crafty veterans of the game they'll just borrow the new guy's books...

I gotta say I'm personally hoping that the resistance to 4e encourages more people around here to give different systems a chance.

I agree. While I wish WotC success, I do hope that this spurs an interest in many of the currenlty smaller "3rd party" companies, and that many of them become more prominenet in our industry. More big names in the market is only good for the market.

[Nial ap Morai]

The gamers I meet with have all complained about the 4th Ed stuff as well. Some made minor gripes, other jokes, and we even have one predicting the end of gaming because Wotc, or Satan as he refers to them, is changing his game. (Kind of strange a D&D gamer calling something else satan... weird)

 

Does it really matter if/when WotC goes to 4Ed? If it does too poorly then the market will demand a change or the company will either change, sell the rights or sink.

 

I cant remember the last time I paid full price for any of their products anyway. We never bought into eberron setting or any of the premade modules. I have primarily gamed with the same group since the mid 80s, and each GM has created their own campaigns/worlds/adventures...

 

I may be like most older gamers, in that I am never truely happy with any rule set, and after learning the system and the rationale behind the rules I make modifications to suit a percieved need of my group or to match the flavor of my campaign

 

I have a huge, tabbed, 3-Ring binder with modifications I have made to 3.5, that range from my campaign requirements, healing, classes, magic changes, deities, combat rules, etc... a bit of the "house rules" include information from outside source material that I have found in other RPGs that suit my needs.

 

I am not going to pack up the 3.5 for 4th Ed becuase I am too heavily vested in the system I already have, the system is not perfect but it evolves and is tweaked from time to time. However, I will look over the 4th Ed source material and take any information from it that I find useful and add it to the system run now.

 

As far as WotC just trying to make money, that's what capitalism and the freemarket is all about, dont buy it if you dont want it. There is so much 3.5 crap out there you may be hard pressed to find anyone that has used it all. Plus the game is to stimulate the imagination not confine between the covers of any particular edition. Make your own rules!

[yani]

I'm not being elitist so much as I'm angry that "they" are making my entire mulit-hundred/thousand dollar book collection obselete.

 

No they're not. Your 3.5 books are still completely useable in a 3.5 game.

 

I think WotC made some good business decisions. I'm a relative newbie to D&D,having only started playing it last year. I was (and still) overwhelmed by all the books and information out there, all the feats, classes, races, magic items, spells, etc, etc that are everywhere. I had a bit of a difficult time playing because I just used the PHP, and all my fellow players where experienced fellows with the library at their fingertips to build, customise and optimise their characters.

 

When I found out 4.0 was coming out, I was excited. I used to be a moderator on an online post-based RPG game, and I loved it. I wanted to DM a D&D game, but 3.5 overwhelmed me. 4.0 seemed like an excellent kick-off for me as a new DM, to not have to worry about all the addendums that come with, and that 4.0 would counter some of the "broken" bits of 3.0/3.5 (3.0 polymorph anyone?).

 

My personal reasons aside, I think they made a good decision because the environment has changed and WotC needs new customers - the very same people that flock to WoW. They needed to tailor a product that appealed to that mob, rather than to the existing customers. They know existing customers will buy their products; they needed new, fresh blood, that they were losing out to WoW and other onlie stuff. That's why the online side was introduced too.

[Ironworker]

I just love it when gamers assume only gamers are like this. People are like this. Haven't you ever seen the way sports freaks loose it when something changes in their game or favorite team? Same thing with popular T.V. programs and let's not even talk about politics.

 

Companies are in buisness to make money. However there seems to be a trend lately to re-vamp new rules systems every few years. I'm not really sure why this is the case. Perhaps it's poor design or ADD or something. Or perhaps it's just a need for more money. It seems that no game system from any major company stays consistant for years at a time and sometimes individual systems don't even seem finished before they are re-designed again. (weren't the Wood Elves for Warhammer skipped for like two edditions?)

 

I'm sure internet forums are a factor here. We are probably shooting ourselves in the foot as much as anything. The customer isn't alway right no mater what the marketing firms tell you in comercials. They only say that to make you feel all fuzzy inside but it's just not true. In the case of games in particular it's hard for a customer on the street to know what actually goes into a project or how many people and resources these companies devote to a project. Game companies are small and often not all that wealthy. They arn't Wal-Mart or Microsoft. Even companies like WoTC and GW are insignificant in the corporate world. Constant demands for changes and then constant complaints about those changes can run these companies into the ground.

 

For years I was just like every other gamer. I wanted to get into the buisness. Now I'm not so sure. It's a small market. Game companies are often run by folks with more enthusiasm for games than buisness sense and I'm sure that goes for me too. Recent game culture has shifted towards the myth of "ballance" which is a myth. Ballance cannot be achieved in any game more diverse than chess. When people grab hold of myths they loose the ability to think rationally and the internet gives them a chance to respond in mass over every little change even if that change is simply more content.