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vutpakdi

D&D 4th Edition... Thoughts?

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I was poking thru the players handbook last night, and I have to say this:

 

MAGIC MISSLE! How could they screw up a classic spell like MAGIC MISSLE?!!

 

"I attack the darkness!" :ph34r:

 

You have to ROLL to hit with Magic Missle now....Thats just wrong!

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My brother, who works in IT, took a brief look at my PHB and declared that it looked like the source code for a program. (He actually laughed out loud when I then turned to the powers and showed him the "keywords"...) Which sort of seems to be true from what I've seen so far - the mechanics of the game bear no resemblance to the things they represent. Instead, it seems to be left up to the "end user" to decide how things appear in their game. The PHB is nothing but the barest bare-bones crunch, with almost no fluff.

 

Hmm - now that you mention it, that's probably one of the things that led me to really like the layout and organization of the books - it is a lot like well documented source code.

 

Which isn't really surprising if you think about it - they were developing the online tools right along side the new editiion - what do you want to bet that heavily influenced the way things were written and formatted and maybe even the rules themselves?

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Which isn't really surprising if you think about it - they were developing the online tools right along side the new editiion - what do you want to bet that heavily influenced the way things were written and formatted and maybe even the rules themselves?

 

I would suspect the mathematical models they used would have more to do with it, than any online tool design.

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4th edition is for munchkins and power gamers, not serious role-players.

 

I wouldn't say so. Most, if not all, powergamers head towards magic users. Magic is boned in 4.0.

 

You can't sneak attack spells, even.

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Which isn't really surprising if you think about it - they were developing the online tools right along side the new editiion - what do you want to bet that heavily influenced the way things were written and formatted and maybe even the rules themselves?

 

I would suspect the mathematical models they used would have more to do with it, than any online tool design.

Ah, yes, but did those mathematical models come about because of the need to change the rules, or because of the need to build things so that they could be used online?

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4th edition is for munchkins and power gamers, not serious role-players.

 

I'm kinda suprised how many quote responses this has gotten seeing as how it's a flaming forum hand grenade. :lol:

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Ah, yes, but did those mathematical models come about because of the need to change the rules, or because of the need to build things so that they could be used online?

 

They came about to fix the most widely complained about element of D&D, balancing all classes throughout all levels. Of course, now people are complaining it's too balanced. Can't please them all.

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They came about to fix the most widely complained about element of D&D, balancing all classes throughout all levels. Of course, now people are complaining it's too balanced. Can't please them all.

heh heh...i can see why balancing would be desired in the Living Campaigns, some of the published adventures, and even some home campaigns.

 

Personally, I've always felt it's the GMs responsibility to balance the adventures for the classes the players want to play. Years ago, when I was setting up my new 3e campaign with a bunch of people I had never played with (and most of whom had never played together), a couple players who were D&D veterans were trying to figure out who should fill the "standard" slots of Fighter, Wizard, Cleric, and Rogue. They were a little taken aback by my statement - play what you want, if the party doesn't have something, I'll adjust the adventure accordingly. They couldn't grasp that I would run a campaign that way. So the initial campaign started with 2 Rogues, a Paladin, a Fighter and Ranger and a whole lot of skepticism on their part.

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4th edition is for munchkins and power gamers, not serious role-players.

 

I'm kinda suprised how many quote responses this has gotten seeing as how it's a flaming forum hand grenade. :lol:

 

My post was not intended as a flame.

It was not directed at any poster in this thread.

 

Perhaps I should elucidate.

 

Why play a human, elf, dwarf, or halfling when you can play an extraplanar creature that can teleport 50 ft. once per round? (reference 1st post in this thread) Your average munchkin/power gamer is going to latch onto that like a starving squirrel on the last peanut on Earth. Those who choose to play the extraplanars (and making them base races was not a good idea, IMHO) will totally own those who play the other races.

 

To answer another question, a serious role player is one who chooses to play a human, dwarf, elf, or halfling rather than a broken extraplanar, for starters.

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Why play a human, elf, dwarf, or halfling when you can play an extraplanar creature that can teleport 50 ft. once per round? (reference 1st post in this thread) Your average munchkin/power gamer is going to latch onto that like a starving squirrel on the last peanut on Earth. Those who choose to play the extraplanars (and making them base races was not a good idea, IMHO) will totally own those who play the other races.

 

To answer another question, a serious role player is one who chooses to play a human, dwarf, elf, or halfling rather than a broken extraplanar, for starters.

 

Just to set the facts straight, Fey Step is 25 ft (5 squares), and once per encounter (not per round). And IMNSHO, Bonus at Will power, Dwarven Resilience, Elven Accuracy, and Second Chance (respectively for humans, dwarves, elves, and halflings), are no less powerful than the Eladrin's Fey Step.

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Why play a human, elf, dwarf, or halfling when you can play an extraplanar creature that can teleport 50 ft. once per round? (reference 1st post in this thread) Your average munchkin/power gamer is going to latch onto that like a starving squirrel on the last peanut on Earth. Those who choose to play the extraplanars (and making them base races was not a good idea, IMHO) will totally own those who play the other races.

 

To answer another question, a serious role player is one who chooses to play a human, dwarf, elf, or halfling rather than a broken extraplanar, for starters.

 

Just to set the facts straight, Fey Step is 25 ft (5 squares), and once per encounter (not per round). And IMNSHO, Bonus at Will power, Dwarven Resilience, Elven Accuracy, and Second Chance (respectively for humans, dwarves, elves, and halflings), are no less powerful than the Eladrin's Fey Step.

 

So that makes it less or more munchkinnie?

 

Math models are great when programming - they have little purpose in an RPG though IMO. You can't really apply a math model to real life - nor the PnP analog of real (fantasy) life. Things are not equal. Some people are born dumb and physically weak. There isn't a balance...nor should there be. Why? Because you are not trying to beat an RPG. There is no winner - and IMNSHO...the only loosers are those who are looking to be the best as opposed to having a good time....

 

But in one of my old PC magazines, the boys from WotC were touting the tournaments that they will be holding once they get the online tools figured out. They will be looking for the best roll-players. That is the essence of D&D 4.

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Ok, so the books are in hand, I've had a reasonable flip through them, and I'm fairly ready to begin passing judgement; the big problem is that I don't mind what they've done for the most part. Does it look like a fun and decent game? Yes! Does it look balanced? I think so. Is it classic D&D? Probably not at first glance just looking at the rules set, but I think in the grand scheme of sitting down and playing the game you will likely have a better experience and that classic element will be present. I don't see how any of the Roleplaying aspect has changed, I mean to a large part mechanics shouldn't enter into that part of the game. It doesn't matter what ruleset I'm using, interacting with the Townsfolk will include the exact same conversations between them and the PCs.

 

3.x was the pinnacle of munchkin gaming if a gaming group let it be, the number of feats available to pour over made it a power gamers wet dream; 4th might seem like it is set up in a similar manner but as it stand there is in my mind a real balance to all the races and classes, every class has its fair share of sweet abilities. The retraining aspect of the game will mean old characters will never get left behind in the dust, because if power creep enters into the game in future products (and lets hope it doesn't) there is the option of swapping abilities for new ones.

 

One thing I will say, is that many people will go out and buy these book, and a lot will decide they dislike the rules set or that they will combine it with their 3.5 stuff (something that I think is very viable in my mind). Meanwhile Hasbro will think they have a huge hit on their hands, and could potentially shoot themselves int he foot when planning for the future if they get excited about 4th edition sales.

 

Oh! And while Half-Orc do indeed get the shaft, Gnomes are right there at the back of the monsters Manual complete with a pretty sweet Racial Power in the form of 'Fade Away'. And If you are itching to play a Half-Orc I think the standard Orc template looks like a fairly reasonable place to start.

 

I'm retaining my positive outlook of the game for now, and I'll keep on reading.

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In the end, 4th is simply an RPG. The players will make it worthwhile, or not.

 

Change if you like, to 4th or a different game, and play to have fun. Try and be a munchkin if your DM lets you and that's your thing. Try and make the munchkin into a better player if that's your thing. The only really important thing is to try and have fun with your friends while you play.

 

What WotC does to the game, the business model they use, or their possible plans to take over the world from Microsoft, all don't mean squat when sitting around a table with your friends to play a game.

 

Make it fun, whatever game, or version of a game, you play.

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my thoughts are I dont need to be spending any more money of RPGs until I get rid of at least 1/2 of the RPGs I have now. 3.5 works fine for me, as does Warhammer, Cyberpunk, Adventure!, Werewolf, Hollow Earth Expedition, Deadlands, Call of Cthulhu, and Chill (and those are just some of the ones Im keeping) ... :ph34r:

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4th edition is for munchkins and power gamers, not serious role-players.

Ah, so you've seen the list of allowed RPGs for serious role-players, then.

 

Ishil

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