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vutpakdi

D&D 4th Edition... Thoughts?

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Yecch. This will certainly appeal do the "do whatever you want without consequences crowd". Next: complete control over time.

 

That's a cleric ability now.......

 

New players should always get a bit of latitude. Anytime I show someone a new game, after 2 or 3 sessions, they always get the ability to tweak their character, or start fresh and bring them to the same level. No reason to hose a new person on their choices.

 

But on the same note, someone who knows the rules should know what / how to pick abilities. Not optimize for the next quest.

 

Mike

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If you're playing at the deadly, competitive monster-crunching end of any game, finding out you made a lousy ability choice and you're stuck with it is frustrating and fun-killing.

 

If I had known Underwater Basketweaving wouldnt have been a great career move I might have picked something else up in college, but as it stands I have still wasted those 4 years & cant retrain myself, I can however learn more stuff...

 

Yes, and in my spare time, all 2 hours a week of it, I want to spend my precious leisure time reliving the frustrated futility of your college career.

 

It's a game.

 

I don't get the fuss. Retrain for every dungeon? What, you're making a level every time you get downtime, or what?

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From what I gather; retraining is an integrated part of the rule system now. You HAVE to retrain because options you picked previously become irrelevant for future, harder, encounters. Much like how you have low level spells in previous editions that become almost useless at higher levels; yet there they are in your spell book. Instead of just carrying around all of this legacy crap you'll never use they trimmed the fat, make you pick fewer options, but you get to change your options more regularly.

 

I really don't see it as a "munchkin's wet dream". It's been balanced in with the rest of the system. This was just part of making the new rule set more streamlined, trimmed down, and user friendly. I can certainly see why playing spell casters are much easier now. You'll be spending less time figuring out how many spells per day for a given level, what spells you want to use by reading all spell descriptions so you can make an informed decision, what spells you want to memorize for the day, then what spell you want to cast for a given situation.

 

Really no surprise that D&D has gone this way. They are pandering to their most vocal customers. They realize younger gamers (their target!) are less interested in sub-optimized characters that are full of flavor and depth but rather want to optimize characters to be effective. People have been whining and crying about "balance" since 3.0 was released. I've seen no slow down over the years in the amount of wailing about "balance". Now everything is balanced as best they could. Couple that with their grand idea of doing centralized "living" campaigns and tournaments and it's no wonder you get a lighter weight, dumbed down, much more structured, balanced, rule set.

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I think the players having access to retraining is a great tool. Say for a few levels they are going to be aiding some Gnomes, but no one speaks Gnomish. A couple characters may decide they are going to pick up Gnomish while they are helping the Gnomes. But once they are done, they will likely never need the language again. So, they swap the feat out for something more useful, say the Athletics or Endurance skill because they'll be doing an underwater adventure, exploring a sunken ship, which may require these skills. Since they don't use Gnomish for a while, they start to get rusty and begin to forget it. Later down the road if they hear a gnomish conversation, they may catch a word or two they recognize, but they wouldn't be able to hold a conversation any more. And after the underwater adventure, they may be helping some dwarves against giants. The party dwarf may decide he'll need a refresher from his brethren on how to defend against the gaints, and puts aside his athletic training for a while. And unfortunately (especially IRL), when you set aside an athletic skill for any amount of time, your competance in that skill quickly deteriorates.

 

Retraining allows the players to mold their characters around the adventures they are having, without crippling them for a future adventure. I believe it's one of the better story enhancing elements the system brings.

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From what I gather; retraining is an integrated part of the rule system now. You HAVE to retrain because options you picked previously become irrelevant for future, harder, encounters. Much like how you have low level spells in previous editions that become almost useless at higher levels; yet there they are in your spell book. Instead of just carrying around all of this legacy crap you'll never use they trimmed the fat, make you pick fewer options, but you get to change your options more regularly.

 

That indicates to me that encounters are _always_ supposed to be level appropriate then. When they aren't, seems like you'll have issues - like a 12th level party running across a trio of low level orc scouts or city guard. If the party doesn't have any more low level appropriate stuff, they'll be using way too much force to deal with the situation, time and time again. That's just the impression I'm getting from the things posted here, though.

 

As for in previous editions - low level spells are only worthless if your GM sets the adventure so that they are. Many times I've played or GMd Adventures where creative use of a low level spell was far more interesting than the brute force approach.

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And don;t forget, Retraining isn;t "rewrite your entire sheet each level you gain". It's Change ONE thing. ONE skill, ONE Feat, ONE Power/exploit/spell. ANd not ONE OF EACH. ONE. Pick one of those 3, and IF YOU WANT TO, you may change ONE.

 

A lot of the crying here seems to be phrasing it like the PCs will have 100% re-written sheets after each encounter, and, I'm sorry guys, it just isn't that way at all. It's not a powergaimg tool - as I stated before It is the only way to actually advance your character.

 

Think of it more like this, if this helps: You're playing ODD&D, AD&D, or D%D3.x. You are a Wizard/MagicUser. You have a 25 page spellbook. By Level 7, this spellbook is full. Your STR is so low that carrying 2 spellbooks would encumber you (hey, under some of those rules, that happens). So you have another magic user carefully erase/dispel a few pages once you reach level 8 so you can learn some Level 4 spells.

 

OR... I guess you can decide it's too munchkinny to learn a new spell of the appropraite level when you level up, because you don't want to erase your old spells to do it...

 

That's what retraining is.

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RB - I understand fully that it's one thing per level. But how many skills, feats and powers do you get at each level? From my quick glancing through the books, it looks like it's no more than 4-5 total per level. That means by tenth level, a PC could have completely changed from "who they were" at 1st and 2nd levels. That's a bit too significant of a change to me. Now, if you're getting 4-5 powers, 4-5 skills and 4-5 feats per level (or more), then changing one thing per level isn't all that significant.

 

As for your example about spells - well, that's one of the changes they made to spell casting in 4e that I don't like. I don't like them being an integral part of the levelling system. I understand why they did so, but I don't have to like it.

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Funny, but only somewhat relevant. Gaming has a social aspect that's almost required, whereas cooking can be done alone.

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Funny, but only somewhat relevant. Gaming has a social aspect that's almost required, whereas cooking can be done alone.

 

Actually quite funny and very relevant. It is a very well written piece of sarcasm take a shot at exactly what is going on in this thread. ::D:::P:

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Worth reading.

 

Quite relevant to the discussion at hand....

 

Funny, but seriously, cooking circles have to have sacred cows about wooden spoons, the evil plastic utensil empire, and the only right way to squeeze a lemon.

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Funny, but only somewhat relevant. Gaming has a social aspect that's almost required, whereas cooking can be done alone.

 

Please promise me that you'll never read Jonathan Swift's A Modest Proposal. I fear that it will scar you for life, what with its open support for cannibalism.

 

:blink:

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Funny, but only somewhat relevant. Gaming has a social aspect that's almost required, whereas cooking can be done alone.

 

I don't see how the fact that gaming is social changes anything.

 

If one person can just change rule x to y, than a group of 5 people can change x to y. How does having multiple people change the fact that you're just changing rule x to y?

 

:unsure:

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So I see many people on here who don't like the new edition but have not actually played or run it. I see others who have and like it. I may have missed it (in thirteen pages of discussion!) but is there anyone here who has played or run the new Edition in/for their group (other than in a demo game) and doesn't like it? I would be very interested to hear about it; my group will start our new 4.0 game in a week and a half and I'd be curious to know what people found cumbersome or dissatisfying about the system once they were in it.

 

As a DM from the old school, though not the oldest (I started running the game when the old AD&D hardcovers and the D&D red, blue, teal and gold box sets were out), I have to say I am liking what I see in the new edition a LOT compared to 3.0 and 3.5.

 

--Anne ::):

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